Snape on the tower (Was: Cohesion)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 162414

Neri wrote:
> <snip> Actually it's not even certain he knows they are in the
tower. It depends on whether McGonagall sends Flitwick *after* the DEs
ran up the tower, and if so, whether Flitwick includes this detail in
his report to Snape. More probably Snape only knows that the DEs are
in the seventh floor.  

Carol responds:
True. We don't know how much Flitwick told Snape, or what Dumbledore
had told him previously. If he knew that Draco had been using the RoR,
he might have known to go to the seventh floor for that reason. But we
do know that Snape didn't kill Flitwick; he stunned him. And he didn't
kill the girls; he told them to tend Flitwick. It seems clear that he
isn't ESE, or he'd have killed them all. It also seems clear that he
didn't want Flitwick to follow him. Why? Maybe he was protecting
Flitwick (who could no more have been a duelling champion in is youth
than I could given his size) from being killed by the DEs or hit by
friendly fire. Equally likely, he didn't want him in the way because
of what he might have to do. Maybe both. we just don't know.

Neri wrote:
> This depends on your interpretation of the Vow. My point (see below)
is that Snape's actions from the moment Flitwick bursts into his
office only make sense if his goal is to save his life from the terms
of the Vow at any cost, or at least that The Plan was to save him from
dying because of the Vow.
> 
Carol:
Only? I realize you're stating your opinion, but "only" is still a
strong word. Other interpretations arre equally valid. Snape's actions
make sense if he knew that the Vow was about to be activated, that he
would be forced to take drastic action of some sort, and that he must
at all costs prevent Draco from either being harmed or killing
Dumbledore. There's no need to read in a desire to save his own life.
 The UV was made at Narcissa's request to protect Draco and that, as
far as we can tell from the text of "Spinner's End," is why Snape
chose to take it (that and keeping his cover as a DE). I could say
that Snape's actions make sense "only" if he's acting to protect
Draco, surely on the assumption that Dumbledore is his usual powerful
self. Instead, I'll say that they make most sense *to me* if that's
his motivation. No "only" about it because I think yours is the
(mis)interpretation that JKR expects from many readers. (Some few will
think that he's loyal to Voldemort rather than himself or Dumbledore
and "explain" his failure to kill Flitwick and the girls as the result
of the small dose of Felix Felicis that Hermione, and only Hermione,
drank.)

> Neri:
<snip>
> Regarding the magical barrier, all he has to do is reducto the
ceiling after he passes through, and then the rest could follow him.
Still takes less time than telling Luna and Hermione to take care of
Flitwick.

Carol:
Clearly, he does have reasons for not joining the Order and not
wanting them to join him on the tower. Whatever they are involves
himself, Draco, and Dumbledore, and the Order members will be a
hindrance. And if Harry's there, as Snape may well anticipate, he,
too, will be in danger--and an even greater hindrance if he tries to
fight the DEs. Best if Snape controls the action himself, maintaining
his cover as a DE, as he can't do if he Reductos the magical barrier.
(Since he can run right through it, he may not even know that it's
there. In any case, just as he doesn't want Flitwick to follow him, he
doesn't want the Order to follow him, either. Much better that they
remain below, fighting the DEs who aren't on the tower and protecting
the school while he does whatever is necessary as the UV and the DADA
curse and his plans with Dumbledore fall into place. (He still doesn't
know exactly who will be there and exactly what he'll have to do, much
less that DD is helpless and wandless, but he knows that the time has
come to do what he has to do, unhindered by those who can't possibly
understand either his actions or his motivations. He no doubt
understands that he may have to die, or worse, keep his vow. But that
he has to do *something* and he has to do it *now,* without
encumbrance, has to be crystal clear in his mind. If there's a way to
escape the Vow, for all three of them to live, maybe he and Dumbledore
can find it. If not, he'll do what he has to do, including join or
seem to join the DEs. Given the Vow, and the DADA curse, there's no
other way, or none that I can see.)
> 
> > Pippin:
> > Obviously whether Snape followed it or not there was a plan, or 
Dumbledore's 'Severus please' was just a craven plea for mercy, which
is ridiculous, IMO.
> 
> Neri:
> Rather weak evidence for a plan, IMO. It could also mean "Severus,
> please don't rip your soul" or "Severus, please remember your Debt"

Carol:
Or, more likely, IMO, "Severus, please keep your Vow." (The UV is a
central element of the HBP plot; the life debt to James, which mmay or
may not have been transferred to Harry, is not menitoned, and indeed
has not been mentioned since SS/PS.) IOW, "Your life, Draco's life,
and Harry's life are important. Mine can't be saved. Do what you have
to do to save them." I don't know whether there was a plan except a
general agreement that Snape would appear to join Voldemort at the end
of the year, but I think we all agree that "Severus, please" was not a
craven plea for Snape to spare DD's life. Whatever his faults,
Dumbledore is not a coward, and his view of death as "the next great
adventure" contrasts markedly with Voldemort's obsession with
preventing his own death at all costs.

> 
> Neri:
<snip> Hermione is seventeen, a witch of age, and also a prefect and
very good at DADA. Luna is sixteen or nearly that). But even so, why
doesn't our responsible Snapy say something like: "run and call
Hagrid" or "shoot a red flare out of the window. The aurors at
Hogsmeade will see it" or "use the fire in my office to contact the
Ministry" or "inform Madam Pomfrey in the Hospital Wing" or even just
"make sure the students don't leave their dormitories". None of these
would have taken him more than ten seconds.
> 
Carol:
Any one of those actions would have revealed his loyalties and
undermined his rejoining the Death Eaters, which he must have planned
to do if he survived, assuming that he's DDM. Sending the girls with
Flitwick to the hospital wing got them all safely out of the way
without involving the Order or the MoM and giving the game away. 

> Neri:
> Well, he runs past one bunch of DEs shooting AKs in all directions
> without trying to talk them out of Hogwarts, arrives alone at the
> second bunch, and as a result he has to make this terrible choice.
But hey, at least he saved his own life from the Unbreakable Vow. Yes,
the Aurors might have interfered with that.

Carol:
Actually, he sends DD's body off the tower, which prevents Fenrir
Greyback from having it for afters, grabs Draco by the scruff of the
neck (how is that possible?) like a mother cat rescuing her kitten,
orders the DEs off the tower (does he know that Harry is there?), runs
past the skirmish because he has to save Draco and keep his cover,
protects Harry from a Crucio, tells Draco to run, again orders the DEs
out of Hogwarts, deflects Harry's hexes without hurting him, and
finally resorts to one stinging blow that disarms him when Harry calls
him a coward. Also, of course, he informs him who the HBP is and
advise him to "shut his mouth and close his mind" (nonverbal curses
and Occlumency), all the while demonstrating through his use of
Legilimency just how practical that advice is.

Think about it, Neri. If snape hadn't kept the Vow and had died in
battle with the DEs, would Dumbledore be alive? And what about Harry?
Who would have kept him from rushing out to fight the DEs on the
tower? Or, if he was delayed and followed them, who would have rescued
him from the Crucio? Who would have kept the DEs from killing or
kidnapping him on the spot?

Neri:
> The only possible cue that seems to work here is "when Draco makes
an irrevocable move". But this suggests again that this whole Plan was
to save Snape's life, at the price of Dumbledore's life, from the
terms of the Unbreakable Vow. The Unbreakable Vow that Snape himself
had made to begin with. IOW, the plan was for Dumbledore to pay with
his life for DDM!Snape's mistake.  
> 
> So any way I look at it, again and again I arrive at the same
> conclusion: DDM!Snape is Ever So Lame.

Carol responds:
Dumbledore knows from the outset of HBP that Draco is tryng to kill
him. The evidence also indicates that he knows about the UV. ("Perhaps
I know more about this than you do, Harry.") He certainly knows about
the DADA curse and yet has chosen Snape to teach the class at this
critical time. The argument in the forest indicates an agreement that
Snape has made that he wants to back out of and DD won't let him. All
of DD's actions in HBP are those of a man in a hurry whose time is
limited. Whether there's a detailed plan or not, he has certainly
talked with Snape about Draco, about the UV, about the possible
consequences. He also knows, as we see before and after the cave, that
his time is ending. It's Harry's time now. Maybe, just maybe, it's
also Snape's time.

Carol, who thinks OFH!Snape, if he exists, is a lame and boring plot
device whereas DDM!Snape is an exciting, dynamic character who will
alter Harry's thinking in some profound and unexpected way in Book 7