OFH, Life-debt and Snape/Lily-no-way

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 162463

Neri wrote:
<snip>
> My point is that, if JKR goes for LID!Snape as I think, then Snape 
> finally repaying his Debt and saving Harry's life should come as a 
> big surprise in the climax of book 7 (at least surprise to anyone
who hasn't read the Life Debt theories). If at this point most readers 
> still believe in DDM!Snape, then there's no surprise, only 
> disappointment (when it turns out he's only LID and not DDM). So I 
> predict that during the first half of Book 7 we will get much more 
> compelling evidence that Snape isn't Dumbledore's Man. This may 
> include several of the following options:
> 
> 1. We might learn that Snape was indeed in love with Narcissa for a 
> long time, and that this was his reason to make the UV to her.

Carol responds:
Not likely. We've already been through this, but the only "evidence"
for an attraction between Narcissa and Snape is in "Spinner's End 
Surely, if it were important, we'd have had more clues by now. And the
only evidence for a life debt as *partial* motive for Snape is in
SS/PS).(I do think that the life debt is the only reason Snape might
have for regretting and trying to save *James's* life, but it doesn't
explain his regret for endangering Lily, which he felt before Godric's
Hollow, or his remorse for her death afterwards. But DD deals in
partial information, and we don't have the real, or primary, motive
for Snape's return to Dumbledore yet. If it were the life debt, which
DD mentioned to Harry in his first year, DD would not have hesitated
to bring it up again in HBP. Nope. Something more complex is involved
in which the life debt may be a component, but Narcissa is not. We
know why she asked Snape for help: he was the only person who could do
so. And we know why he agreed to take the UV: he wanted to save Draco
from killing or being killed. Love for Narcissa, requited or
otherwise, need not enter in.
> 
Neri:
> 2. We might learn some unpleasant things about Snape's schooldays, 
> especially regarding his part in "The Prank", his dabbling with the 
> Dark Arts and his connections with Lucius, Narcissa and "the 
> Slytherin gang".
> 
> 3. Similarly, we might learn new unpleasant things about Snape's 
> Death Eating days and/or his period of spying after Dumbledore during 
> VW1.

Carol:
Indeed we may and probably will. After all, JKR has promised us more
information on the Prank--primarily James's motives, I think. Sirius
won't look very good, either, I suspect. But regardless of what we see
of Severus's school days, all that will be revealed there is his
motives for becoming a Death Eater, which we already know he did. And
he must have done other things besides eavesdropping while he was a
DE, however good he was at "slithering out of action." More deeds to
regret, more reasons for turning against Voldemort when he found out
what he really stood for. None of this works against DDM!Snape. It
relates to the time before he turned to Dumbledore and his reasons for
turning.
> 
Neri:
> 4. We might find out that during OotP Snape told Voldemort about the 
> Occlumency lessons, and that during these lessons Snape was in fact 
> attempting to achieve some mission for Voldemort (my guess: he was 
> trying to find Voldemort's lost soul part inside Harry, and failed).

Carol:
And we might not. I think he was doing what canon says he was doing,
trying to help Harry block Voldemort's entry into his mind,
particularly after he realized what Harry was seeing. Note his anger
when he realizes that Harry has been dreaming about the DoM and that
he wants to continue that dream. IMO, he'd be dead if he'd told LV
about the Occlumency lessons. His own skill at undetectable Occlumency
is the only reason he's alive. And he's going to let Voldemort in on
that secret? I think not. (As for Voldemort's lost soul part, we don't
even know that such a thing exists. Snape *might* know that the diary
was a Horcrux at this point and suspect the existence of others, but I
don't think either he or Dumbledore expects to find a soul piece in
Harry. Certainly not using the Legilimens spell, which merely makes
*memories* visible (and audible?) to the caster.

Neri: 
> 5. We might find that Snape lied to Dumbledore about his part in the 
> MoM battle. For example, that he actually knew in advance about 
> Kreacher betraying the Order, that he knew in advance about the 
> planned operation, that he did not warn the Order about what had 
> happened in Umbridge's office the first time around, and that he 
> stalled for several hours before warning them the "second" time. 

Carol:
Sigh. The "missing five hours" idea again. JKR simply needed events to
fit into a certain time frame, and we can use our imaginations to
construct Snape's actions during that time frame in any way we please.
Among other things, he almost certainly had to sort out the mess the
Slytherins found themselves in and hear their side of the story.
Dumbledore didn't think that Snape had taken more time than necessary,
nor is the question even raised in OoP or HBP. I'm not sure why
"second" is in quotation marks. We know that he ascertained that
Sirius Black was safely at Order HQ and we know that he contacted him
a second time when quite a few Order members were present to tell them
that Harry had probably gone to the MoM (but he intended to check the
Forbidden Forest to make sure). Kreacher's treachery involved getting
Harry to the MoM by pretending that Sirius Black was there. It has
nothing to do with Snape. If it weren't for Snape, HRH, Neville, and
Luna would all be dead at the hands of the DEs.

> 
> 6. We might receive more evidence that Snape's information was
indeed instrumental in the murder of Emmaline Vance. 

Carol:
Or that he was instrumental in faking her death using the Draught of
Living Death. He claimed a greater share in Sirius Black's death than
he could possibly have earned since the only information he could have
given that LV wouldn't already know from Wormtail was that Black was
back in England. And Lucius Malfoy would have told LV that he saw a
black dog with Harry and the Weasleys at Platform 9 3/4. Hm. Who could
that be? As for Harry's fondness for Black, we know exactly who was
responsible for passing on that information: Kreacher. The same
person, erm, house-elf who injured Buckbeak so Black would appear to
be at the MoM being held hostage when Harry tried to contact him.
> 
> 7. We might find out that Snape was instrumental in arresting 
> Mundungus and sending him to Azkaban during HBP.

Carol:
That's a new one. Do you have any evidence of a Snape/Mundungus
connection other than Snape's sneering reference to him as "a smelly
sneak thief" (unkind but accurate)? It seems to me that Mundungus is
pretty good at shady dealing on his own. If anyone else is involved,
it's Aberforth. And we've already seen Mundungus impersonating a
witch, so it's not too surprising that he'd impersonate an Inferius.
Not very bright of him, though, unless he was trying to get into
Azkaban deliberately.
> 

> 8. We might see Snape asking Voldemort for some foul deed in repay 
> for his good services. Prime candidate: assassinating Lupin.

Carol:
I don't know about assassinating Lupin (I think that may be Wormtail's
job), but I do fear that Voldemort will assign Snape to do some foul
deed and he'll be forced to do it to keep his cover. It will be harder
to "slither out of action now," which IMO is one reason Snape was
arguing with DD in the forest. He didn't want to go back to LV because
of what he might be forced to do. (It does make Dumbledore look like a
manipulator and I don't like it, but I don't see any way around it.
Well, Snape is cunning, so maybe he'll find a way, but it will be
difficult.) What I hope we'll see is Snape as Draco's mentor/trainer
and/or Snape working with Bellatrix to get the DEs out of Azkaban, all
the time working to subvert the Malfoys to rebel against LV. But we'll
see. Frankly, I'm afraid for Snape and for his soul, but I trust that
his loyalties remain with Dumbledore and he'll do what he has to do,
at whatever cost to himself.
> 
Neri:
> 9. We might see Lucius agreeing to cooperate with the Order or with 
> the Ministry against Voldemort, and then Snape involved in killing 
> Lucius. 

Carol:
If anyone convinces Lucius to cooperate with the Order, it will be his
old friend, Severus Snape. Why else emphasize their friendship in
"Spinner's End"?
> 
Neri:
> 10. If JKR opts for the BANGy solution (which she often does with 
> Snape) we might actually see Snape on page killing, or takes part in 
> killing, an Order member or one of Harry's friends. Prime
candidates: Moody, Mundungus, Luna.
> 
Carol:
Extremely unlikely. Snape will need to maintain a low profile
considering that he's the second most wanted man in the WW. Mundungus
is not Harry's friend, nor would his death be bangy, and he's already
in Azkaban. Moody can take care of himself. It would be interesting to
see a duel between them in which Snape somehow manages *not* to kill
Moody and yet conceals his loyalties. As for Luna, I do fear that
she'll die, but more likely at the hands of Bellatrix, whom we know to
be both cruel and evil. Or maybe Luna will be seriously injured and
Snape will heal her, revealing once and for all where his loyalties
lie. Why all the emphasis on Healer!Snape in HBP if we're not going to
see him again?

Neri: 
> Some of the above we might learn by watching on page a conversation 
> between Voldemort and Snape (note how Snape is the only important DE 
> we've never seen together with Voldemort at least once, probably 
> because it would have been much too revealing). Any of the above 
> would be calculated to ensure that by the climax of HBP most readers 
> will be certain that Snape isn't DDM (but I predict that JKR will 
> still be underestimating the fandom, so many readers might still 
> believe it despite all the evidence).

Carol:
I would love to overhear such a conversation--the great Occlumencer
pulling one over on the great Legilimencer with his undetected
half-truths and even maybe a spun tale or two. JKR loves to use such
conversations as misdirection, and I'm sure she wants to make Snape
look as Dark as possible before her revelation/reversal--but of
course, there will be little hints in the other direction, too. What's
the point of a "climax" revealing that Snape is evil after we've seen
him kill Dumbledore? What could be more climactic than that as far as
Dark deeds go? The revelation has to be that he isn't evil. (Don't
underestimate those of us who disagree with you. I'm betting that
we're right and you're wrong.)
>
Neri: 
> However, even *before* Book 7 is out, I would not be surprised at
all if we get more debunking of DDM!Snape theories from JKR. Note how
JKR didn't care in the beginning about the Dumbledore-Is-Alive
theories. Even in that very reading in which she finally told us
Dumbledore is "definitely dead", one question before that she said
only to "not expect him to do a Gandalf". But when, following
Rushdie's question, she realized that Dumbledore-Is-Alive is on its
way to turn into a mainstream DDM!Snape theory, she changed her
strategy on the spot and very decisively debunked it.

Carol:
She very seriously debunked the idea that DDM!Snape theories depend on
DD being alive. She didn't debunk the idea that DD may have wanted
Snape to keep his vow. In fact, she steered clear of that idea, quite
likely because she didn't want the question to be raised.

Neri: 
> So, if in the near future JKR gets the impression that the next
mainstream DDM!Snape theory is Dumbledore-Told-Snape-To-Kill-Him, I 
won't be surprised at all if we get from her something along the line
of "How dare you. Dumbledore would never order a friend to kill him".

Carol:
I'm quite sure that she already knows about that theory and I very
much doubt that she'll debunk it whether it's close to the truth or
not. She likes to keep profitable lines of discussion going, and
unlike, say, Snape is a Vampire or Dumbledore is alive or (sigh!) Mark
Evans is Harry's Muggleborn second cousin, interpretations of
"Severus, please" are profitable, as are DDM!Snape theories, even if
they don't lead us to the exact solution to the mystery that she has
in mind. And mark my words, she hasn't given us the Snape solution yet.
 
Neri:
> Not that it would make much impression on the fandom, probably, but 
> I'm anticipating my Told You So post <g>.

Carol:
I wonder how you'll like writing your "Huh! Fancy that! I was wrong
after all" post. (I know I'll hate writing mine if that turns out to
be the case!) <grinning back>

Carol, hoping that the line of inquiry JKR decides to smash to
smithereens is Harry!Horcrux