ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162547

> Sydney:
> No skin off his nose?!  No.. skin.. off his nose.. dude, we get 
this
> again and again from OFH!Snapers I this just makes no kind of 
sense at
> all.  This is a vow that you break it, you die.  Snakes of fire 
wrap
> around your hand and Bind Your Fate Forever.  You don't get
> main-chancer, OFH, playing-the-odds wiggle room here.  Again, why
> would a guy who's about life preservation *take an Unbreakable Vow 
at
> all*?
> 
> Sarah:
> By playing-the-odds wiggle room, I think you're referring to what
> people have been calling Grey, which I don't believe.  LDS (Life 
Debt
> Snape, not Latter Day Saints) isn't counting on wiggle room.  He
> already knows what he has to do, and if he can't it'll be worse to 
him
> than anything the UV could bring on.

Magpie:
I don't see how OFH/LiD is not looking for wiggle room.  You need 
wiggle room if you're OFY always. People who are out for themselves 
don't make Unbreakable Vows to other people. People who are about 
self-preservation do not make vows that end in death. These same 
things fit perfectly well, otoh, into the character of DDM!Snape who 
is the perfect personality type for vows--and nothing like what you 
described about loving freedom and DD.  Snape as written was made 
for that kind of thing. It's Snape at his most Snape. With LiD or 
Grey or OFH this vow centerpiece of a scene where Snape knowingly 
binds his fate to another and makes a vow (a solemn promise 
committing oneself to an act, service, or condition ) into nothing, 
something he's doing because he really doesn't care either way. 
That's why, imo, OFH!Snape arguments always have to focus on the 
fact that he's agreeing to kill Dumbledore instead of the more 
important aspect, which is what happens if he doesn't do as he's 
promised. I plan to come to work on Monday morning. I'm there mostly 
every Monday morning. But if someone asked me to take a UV that I 
would be at my desk Monday morning? I wouldn't do it. Because 
there's no wiggle room in a vow that kills me.

> Sydney:
> Why would you write such a scene about such a character?  You
> say it's because the 'kill D-dore pact' was already in place. But
> that's not what Snape was swearing to do or die.  He was swearing 
to
> protect Draco from all harm and watch over him as he did the Dark
> Lords wishes-- the third clause, going by the 'twitch of his hand',
> was unexpected.  He was putting his life on the line for somebody
> else.  That's just simply, plain, out-and-out, NOT a way for a 
writer
> to efficiently paint a picture of a guy who is all about
> self-preservation.
> 
> Sarah:
> You think she wants us to efficiently guess the end at this point 
in
> time?  No, someone who is not trying to give the end away would not
> paint an efficient picture.  The reasons to write such a scene 
about
> such a character are:  misdirection while giving just enough clues 
so
> it's not a cheat.

Magpie:
What you're describing isn't cheat or misdirection, it's not writing 
the character. Sydney's point is that whatever is revealed about 
Snape eventually it *must* satisfyingly explain all of Snape's 
behaviors at once--without leaving anything dangling (as in Sydney's 
example where there's no questions like "That bit where Crouch took 
Neville aside--what was that about?"). Writing Snape as decisive 
(the entire time, natch) as a cover for his really being wavering 
isn't the way Rowling writes at all--or any good writer would.  It's 
a bait and switch, writing one character and then saying, "But that 
was all an act!" with not a single sign that it was an act. Snape's 
entire personality disappears replaced by a guy who's got to be 
explained from top to bottom through exposition or our own 
imagination. Yes, Rowling has kept us from guessing Snape's secret. 
But she's also *got* us guessing by giving us actual clues to work 
with.  

With DDM!Snape we don't yet have a lot of technical explanations but 
emotionally everything clicks. In fact, to me technically everything 
still clicks more as well. The killing of Dumbledore still seems 
written as begging for some explanation in canon, with lots of flags 
that say we don't really know what's going on, while ESE!Snape's 
sending to help to the MoM--which he doesn't even offer a cover 
story for--seems a lot more difficult to explain.

Sarah: 
> OK, now I see what twitch you are talking about, thank you.  I can
> think of any number of explanations for that.  Snape doesn't like 
to
> talk about killing Dumbledore, Snape doesn't want to think about 
what
> will happen if Draco fails, etc.

Magpie:
Rowling's really clear about little moments and gestures from Snape. 
The twitch doesn't automatically show that he's DDM!Snape, 
certainly, but I can't see how it works as anything else than some 
show of difficulty in taking that part of the vow.  Snape's not 
talking about killing Dumbledore in the scene, he's vowing to do it 
or die himself. If he's OFH, why go through with the vow? OFH 
explains the twitch but not the follow through. The twitch, far from 
showing indecision, shows Snape as ever decisive--he masters any 
misgivings and plows ahead. If we imagine Peter Pettigrew in the 
scene, I think his twitch would have been written differently, in 
such a way that we could see that he was making the decision to kill 
for himself because he saw no way out of the vow.

Sarah:
> 
> If you really think killing Dumbledore was a surprise from 
Narcissa,
> and Snape put his life on the line to promise he would kill 
Dumbledore
> to protect Draco, how is he Dumbledore's man?  Wouldn't that make 
him
> Draco's or Narcissa's man?

Magpie:
It makes him not his own man, which is what he is if he's OFH. Those 
of us who believe in DDM!Snape think that the vow will slot into 
that as well, but we don't yet have the real explanation.  What we 
do have, though, is a Snape who's put his life on the line for 
someone besides himself willingly.
 
> Sydney:
> Yeah, but, again, if Snape knows and Dumbledore knows that this is 
the
> point at which either Snape or Dumbledore will die, and Snape knows
> and Dumbledore knows that Snape is Mr. Self-Preservation, then 
*why is
> Dumbledore having to plead*?  Why does he use a voice so pleading 
and
> out of his usual tone that it shocks Harry to the core?
> 
> Sarah:
> I thought that was just more of the Harry filter, to be honest.  I
> thought Dumbledore said please because he's a polite dude, and his
> voice sounds funky because he's a) getting weaker by the minute b)
> doesn't really want to ask this as it's a hell of an imposition, 
but
> it needs doing.  I don't see how it makes that big of a difference
> whether Dumbledore and Snape love each other forever or not.  They 
are
> certainly on pretty good terms (assuming lack of ESE which I think 
we
> both are), and this is certainly a big favor to ask.
> 

Magpie:
Explaining it through the Harry this way takes a moment that's 
highlighted in the text as important and tosses it out. And anyway 
the Harry filter doesn't work that way-it doesn't create things that 
aren't there. Harry's interpretations of things are often wrong, but 
he does see things as they appear. If Harry hears a note of pleading 
in DD's voice so strange it shocks him and is so new and different--
this after an entire scene of DD being weaker--I think that note is 
there and we just don't yet understand it.  As for 
Dumbledore "imposing" on Snape--he's not imposing on him if he knows 
Snape's going to kill Dumbledore to save himself. It doesn't matter 
if it's according to Dumbledore's plan as well. Snape's not doing 
him a favor.  DDM!Snape has reason to consider not fulfilling the 
vow even if it means death to himself.

> Sydney:
> The LifeDebt Snape explains the same things as DDM!Snape because it
> explains the same things on the bare level of action (except of 
course
> for the Unbreakable Vow and wanting the DADA job and pretty much 
every
> single thing relating to Peter Pettigrew).
> 
> Sarah:
> I think it explains the UV, for reasons I've tried to explain but 
you
> may not agree with.  I think the DADA job isn't a large enigma, 
it's
> Snape's version of reading the weather report to see if Dumbledore 
has
> anything big in store for him in the coming year.  I'm unsure what
> problems it creates for Peter Pettigrew, could you elaborate?

Magpie:
I admit I haven't quite understood the explanation for the UV in 
this theory. It seems like it only understands why Snape would agree 
to kill Dumbledore rather than explaining why he'd agree to die if 
he didn't kill Dumbledore. And this again takes something that's 
been hammered on throughout the series turns out to be nothing. 
Snape might as well have been checking the weather.  Far from 
explaining things in canon, it's needing to explain away things in 
canon. The twitch, Snape's oft-mentioned desire for the DADA job and 
Dumbledore's pleading on the Tower either didn't happen or didn't 
mean anything.
 
> Sydney:
> So then what's with Snape's innermost thoughts actually being 
really
> mysterious at all?  And why have Harry have such potent emotional
> reactions to him for book after book?  Why not just get this cool 
fun
> 'out for himself but bound by magical debt' character in the open
> where we can enjoy the 'which way is that crazy Snape going to 
jump?"
> 
> Sarah:
> Do you really think Snape will have three pages of exposition, 
leave a
> suicide note, or perhaps leave Harry some pensieve memories that
> explain it all?  Why is this Snape idea more "cool fun" and bears 
more
> mockery than anyone else's?  Why not ask the same of DDM, ESE, or 
any
> other?  Let's get all those cool fun guys out here.  Which way is 
that
> crazy in love with Dumbledore Snape going to jump next?

Magpie:
Suicide note? No. Penieve memories? Maybe. Three pages of 
exposition? At least. That's less than we got in PoA, isn't it?  And 
that was Snape explaining his hatred of Sirius and the Marauders--
and it was awesome. Snape's nature's been the biggest open question 
of the series and not only do I think we're going to get pages of 
exposition but I think they're going to be juicy and fun and a joy 
to read--and that they're going to rock Harry's world. Snape, like 
Petunia in OotP, seems rather bursting to cry out what's been eating 
him and how unfair life has been to him. I think we as readers are 
unconsciously just as close to begging for it.

-m