[HPforGrownups] Re: ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162563

> Alla:
>
> Just small thing, or maybe not so small :) The fact that Snape is
> going to die is more important that he agreed to kill Dumbledore? Why
> is that?

Magpie:
Because in this specific context what's being argued is that Snape is out 
for himself. So when people question how someone out for himself could take 
the Unbreakable Vow, it's not the fact that he's going to kill Dumbledore 
that seems a problem.  Killing Dumbledore isn't at odds with being out for 
himself, given the right circumstances. What is at odds with it is the fact 
that he's willingly agreed that if he doesn't do something asked of 
him--whatever that thing is--he will die.

Alla:
> I also wanted to specify something about OFH!Snape or LID!Snape since
> I love them both.
>
> OFH!Snape or LID!Snape as I see him would totally make the UV even if
> at the core of it is desire to protect Draco. OFH!Snape is not the
> man who does not care about anybody. I do not think such characters
> exist, unless they are meant to be  completely cartoonish. (
> Voldemort?)
>
> Snape as I see him is out for himself  in the fight of Dark v Light (
> Voldemort v Dumbledore), but of course there are people he may care
> about  and Draco and Narcissa may as well be them.> I do not see the 
> contradiction, really. I mean, I despise Narcissa,
> but she clearly loves her son. That in my book does not make her any
> less of the evil follower of Voldemort.  Just as if Snape wanted to
> protect Draco because he likes the boy for whatever reasons, but
> would have cared less about Dumbledore's goals does not become DD!M
> Snape. So he has human emotions, but he is still primarily concerned
> with his own goals ( that is if he is OFH! I mean)

Magpie:
I see--you're saying that OFH doesn't for you mean stay alive whatever the 
cost, but that Snape is out for goals known only to himself as of yet? But 
in the battle b/w the Light vs. Dark he doesn't favor one side or the other. 
One question for that, then, is why is he, more than any other character, 
risking his life for it?  I mean, Snape's the character who's the most in 
the thick of this battle, and a lot of his characterization seems to turn on 
that and his ties to both sides.

Or do you mean he's very into the battle, because he's planning to switch 
sides depending on which one wins?  Because with that goal I see the Vow as 
more in conflict with his goal since it might out him to one side or the 
other.

Of course with DDM!Snape there's the even more direct conflict of: Isn't 
agreeing to kill Dumbledore in direct conflict with being DDM?  But that's 
why the heart of the DDM theory is that killing Dumbledore is the ultimate 
test for DDM!Snape, who would have preferred to die.  And many of us see 
that not so much from wanting to explain away things like the murder (as 
seemed to be suggested up thread), but from things in canon that seem like 
red flags telling us this Things Are Not As They Seem and We Don't Know Yet. 
(Protect Draco, of course, isn't at odds with being DDM, and Dumbledore 
seems to know about the Vow.) With DDM is there actually isn't anything to 
explain away.  The murder is the biggest sticking point, but that seems 
written to be just that kind of question.


Alla:
> I am just confused how does it follow that Snape could not make UV if
> he is OFH. In my view - easily. As long as he is not for Dumbledore
> or for Voldemort, he can be friend, protector, lover of any number of
> people ( I don't think the number is that great  but theoretically,
> why not?)

Magpie:
I see what you mean--you aren't, as I think others were, denying that Snape 
is decisive and not wavering.  Your version of OFH is more out for his own 
agenda Snape (perhaps OA!Snape for short). He can be equally committed as 
DDM!Snape, we just don't know what he's committed to yet?

-m