[HPforGrownups] Re: EBA!Snape

[Bart Lidofsky]

No: HPFGUIDX 162574

justcarol67 wrote:
>>Snape was clearly taken in by the philosophy of the Death Eaters,
> 
> having the basic self-conception, "I'm better than everybody else; why
> doesn't everybody recognize it?". 
> 
> Carol responds:
> Can you supply some canon here to connect these two ideas? I don't see
> how Snape's view of himself (the Half-Blood Prince?) relates to
> Voldemort's ostensible philosophy of pureblood superiority. Regulus
> Black would have been taken in by this philosophy, but why young
> Snape? I think what he wanted was recognition and acceptance (and
> possibly revenge against certain Gryffindor opponents of LV).

Bart:
	Recognition and acceptance, certainly. Calling himself The Half-Blood 
Prince shows his sensitivity about his muggle father. Classic egotist 
masquerading an inferiority complex.

Bart:
> And it is clear that he still has the idea. But it is also clear that
> he has a clear moral and ethical code of his own, and saw that the
> person he had chosen as a leader was a fake. 
> 
> Carol:
> Clear that he still thinks highly of himself, do you mean? Are you
> thinking of the "I, the Half-Blood Prince" speech? I can't think of
> any other evidence to support this view, but perhaps you can cite
> some. 

Bart:
	His criticism of the pupils, of other professors, and building up of 
himself occurs throughout the series. Do you really need for me to come 
up with examples?

Carol:
 > I don't recall his boasting at all
> on any occasion. Even the HBP speech doesn't involve any gloating
> about his own abilities, only resentment that Harry would used his own
> spells against him.)

Bart:
	Damn, I WILL have to look up the quotes. They ARE there, if you look 
for them. Look, in particular, to when he talks about potions, what he 
says about Lupin in POA, his attitude towards Sirius in OOTP, just for 
example.

Carol:
> And how, exactly, can you reconcile "a clear moral and ethical code of
> his own" (which I agree that he has) with being evil? What is that
> coed, in your view, and how does it fit with his leader's being a
> fake? 

Bart:
	Many people have moral codes that others consider to be evil. I eat 
meat, which many consider to be evil.

Carol:
> (Snape is a half-blood, too, which didn't prevent him from
> joining the DEs.) DD says that Snape's motivation for turning against
> Voldemort was his recognition of how LV interpreted the Prophecy. Why
> reject DD's testimony in favor of Snape's recognition that LV didn't
> support his own code? 

Bart:
I must admit a lot of it is backwards logic; taking Snape's behaviors 
and attitudes, and asking how they can be reconciled. In the case of 
Dumbledore speaking of his motivation, Dumbledore can be counted on to 
give as little information as possible. In this case, one might ask how 
could Riddle's interpretation of the prophecy drive Snape away, so 
decisively. The only logical answer is that he showed his true colors, 
his true hypocrisy. Also note that a big part of the "Voldemort 
Philosophy" is more than purebloods, halfbloods, and muggle born; he 
believes that the WW should rule the muggle world.

I am also familiar with a possibly relevant piece of real world history. 
I am reasonably certain that JKR has come across it in her research. 
There was a special branch of Hitler Youth. Youths from all over Germany 
were specially invited to be in it. They were sent into concentration 
camps to taunt the Jews. Those who compared notes realized a strange 
coincidence; they had a Jewish grandmother, grandfather, or some more 
remote ancestor who was Jewish. When it was time to leave the 
concentrations camps, the guards would not open the doors. They were 
prisoners, themselves.  And there WERE rumors that Hitler had a Jewish 
grandparent...

Bart:
> jealousy of Dumbledore. Both Snape and Dumbeldore were demonstrated to
> be highly creative and had a sufficient understanding of the basics of
> magic to improve upon the techniques commonly taught, yet Dumbledore
> was everybody's favorite, and Snape was nobody's (which left Snape
> vulnerable to the entrapments and temptations of the Death Eaters). 

Carol:
> Can you show some canon for this perceived jealousy? DD is hardly
> Snape's contemporary--he's about 115 years older, more like a
> great-great-grandfather than any kind of peer or equal, and he's
> always in a superior position to Snape--headmaster, head of the Order,
> etc. I don't think that Snape envies Dumbledore: I think that he wants
> DD's approval and envies *James*, who became Head Boy despite being a
> troublemaker and a bully (and never even having been a Prefect). In
> PoA, for example, he wants DD to pay attention and believe him when he
> suggests that Lupin is helping Black to get inside the castle.

Bart:
I guess "jealous of Dumbledore" is an overstatement. I don't believe he 
holds anything against Dumbledore; it's more against society as a whole. 
Consider: He clearly was (and continues to be) an extraordinarily 
talented mage, who should have been able to write his own ticket in the 
WW. But all we saw was that he was treated with scorn (as opposed to a 
wizard, such as Dumbledore, who was admired from the time he was a 
student). With the superficiality clearly shown among many in the WW 
(particularly by Corn Fudge and his ilk) it is not a stretch that Snapes 
outward appearance overcame his inner talent in forming the judgment of 
others.

Bart:
>>The point is that Snape's cruelty, his, face it, evil nature is NOT
> 
> an act. He IS as reprehensible as he seems. 

Carol:
> Okay, here's where we get into opinion rather than interpretation.
> What cruelty? Do you mean his sarcasm and his unfair point deductions
> or his hatred of Harry or something else? Can you show me a single
> instance of Snape's ostensible cruelty that's comparable to Umbridge's
> detentions or her sending Dementors after Harry or her intention to
> Crucio him, or to Bellatrix's actual Crucio of Neville? Snape *saved*
> Harry from a Crucio? How is that cruelty? I think "reprehensible" is a
> matter of opinion here. Just show me any actual cruelty, please, and
> I'll show you nastiness and a mean disposition and a penchant for
> revenge not very different from hermione's. Not admirable, I'll grant
> you, but a far cry from Umbridge or Bellatrix or Barty Jr., all of
> whom are actual sadists and all of whom, unlike Snape, are in some way
> associated with the Cruciatus curse. And I almost forgot Voldemort,
> from whose clutches Snape has saved Harry more than once. If you call
> Snape's mean-spirited detentions cruel, we'll just have to agree to
> disagree.

Bart:
Not all evil is equal in degree. Snape satisfies his sadism in petty 
ways, such as using his position to arbitrarily punish those he dislikes 
while looking the other way with those he likes. His cruelty to Sirius 
is obvious. When he takes over Lupin's class, he attempts to betray 
Lupin's trust. Consider when he arbitrarily destroyed Harry's work; this 
shows an inner evil.

Bart:
> He did what Dumbledore said not because Dumbledore said it, but
> because Dumbledore was right. His arguments with Dumbledore showed
> that he was quite capable of disobeying Dumbledore if he disagreed.
> And it was clear that Dumbledore could not trust him 100%; he not only
> dropped Harry's Occlumancy lessons, but, as is obvious through
> context, failed to tell Dumbledore that he had. But, while Dumbledore
> could not always trust the man, he DID know where his loyalties lay,
> and that is where he found Snape to be trustworthy. 

Carol:
> But DD could and *did* trust Snape completely. there was every reason
> to drop the Occlumency lessons after Harry betrayed Snape's trust by
> entering the Pensieve. 

	In context. He trusts that Snape is loyal to the Order. Snape dropped 
the Occlumancy lessons, but did not tell Dumbledore that he had done so.

	Bart

P.S. I think Snape is a more interesting character than Harry. There, I 
said it!