The Train Scene GoF / Draco's Crying (long)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 162584

---  "horridporrid03" <horridporrid03 at ...> wrote:
>
> > >>Betsy Hp:
> > > <snip>
> > > But here's the thing, while Ender *was* facing 
> > > dangerous bullies..., Draco is neither... 
> > > <snip>
> > > Harry is in danger of being annoyed. Possibly being
> > > pissed off. That's all Draco brings to the table in
> > > this scene.
> 
> > >>bboyminn:
> > That's part of the point I was trying to make. Draco
> > isn't the standard generic schoolyard bully. This is
> > more of a grudge match rather than the big kid picking
> > on the skinny kid.
> > <snip>
> > The real heart of my argument was in the part you cut.
> > The part that went something like this-
> > 
> > "On the train, there is without a doubt a great deal 
> > of ego, pride, and even machismo involved. But what is
> > really happening is, this is everyone's way of telling
> > Draco that they will not be cowed or intimidated...."
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Aaah.  Okay, but this means it isn't about bullying at
> all then, right? Not between the Trio and Draco and Co.,
> anyway.  Because, as you say, Draco cannot bully Harry.
> It's a grudge match more than  anything.  And when has 
> Draco *ever* won one of these grudge matches?  
> I'm pretty sure that up until HBP, the answer is never.
> 


bboyminn:

What we are doing now is dancing around the definition of
'bully'. What you seem to be implying is that a 'bully'
is someone who DOES hit you. Yet, I say what is so 
insidious about bullying is that it is based not 
necessarily in the act of violences, but in the 
teasing, threats, harassment, and intimidation. It's not
about violence, it's about the attempt to instill fear
and invoke negative emotions in you victim. 

But Draco is the provocateur. He is the one that always
initiates the harassment and teasing of Harry & Co.
Harry would gladly spend his life ignoring Draco, if only
Draco would let him. Why does Draco 'wind Harry up'?
Answer: because it does wind Harry up. Draco continues to
harass and provoke Harry because it bothers Harry, because
it gets a negative response out of him. Because it annoys
him. Anything he can do to add to the misery of Harry's 
life, he is going to do.

Unfortunately, Draco, like most bullies, doesn't know 
where to draw the line. In real-life your friends probably
tease you more mercilessly than your enemies, but they 
know when enough is enough. They no when to draw the line.
Draco has never learned this lesson. So he pushes Harry 
and pushes Harry until he pushes too far, and usually
suffers greatly for it. 

In the specific Train scene, it doesn't matter, by the 
rule of the playground, if Draco represents a real, 
genuine, and direct physical threat. What matters is that
Draco is threatening and intimidating the gang, and he 
doesn't know when to stop. You can only take just so much
pushing on the playground, before you have to respond. 
Draco pushed on step too far, and suffered for it. But 
regardless of how right or wrong, by adult standards, the
gangs response was, Draco clearly provoked the situation.
He clearly teased, threatened, and tried to intimidate 
the Trio, and he went too far when he insulted Cedric. 

You can say that Harry's many attacks on Draco are caused
by his own anger, but you must ask, what causes that anger
and the answer is Draco. Draco provokes Harry, so 
naturally Harry responds. 

It's not like James and Snape where Snape's presences in
enough to provoke James to action. It takes a direct and
deliberate action on Draco's part to provoke Harry to 
action, and not just provocation, but provocation 'one
step too far'.

Most kids when faced with this type of intimidation just
bear it. They suffer the humilation and move on. That is
until one day when they snap and end up in bell tower with
a high powered rifle. Harry on the other hand, has limits,
push him past his limit, and be prepared for a furious 
response. A particular lesson Draco never seems to learn.

Draco could have come in with his threats and intimidation
and walked away laughing as he often does, but he just 
couldn't restrain himself. He had to take it one step too
far.

Harry has consistently shown, that he will not be 
intimidate. Certainly he allows Draco to harrass and 
annoy him all the time. It winds him up, but he takes it;
miserable as it make him feel. But he won't take much. He 
won't allow himself to be pushed too far before he 
responds with a fury. 'Never tickle a sleeping dragon'. 
And if you do tickle a sleeping Dragon, then you better 
be prepared for it to wake up and bite your head off. 

Since Draco is always provoking the situation, I have very
little sympathy for him. Since he always starts the 
teasing, threats, and intimidation; that makes him the 
bad guy even when he provokes Harry into responding. By 
extension, that makes Harry the good guy because, when 
pushed too far, he is responding rather than provoking.

As to whether this indicent will prey on anyone's 
conscience in the future. I think not. Certianly, there 
will always be an underlying emotional element to it, but
kids are resilient and incidences like this are typically
left behind and forgotten. Life goes on.


> Betsy Hp:
>
> So I think, in this scene Draco is playing the role of
> Scapegoat. The Trio cannot hit the Death Eaters like 
> this. They cannot hit Voldemort like this. But they 
> *can* hit Draco.  

bboyminn:

Again, only because Draco provoked them beyond endurance;
beyond highly emotional teenage schoolyard endurance.
Once Draco took it one step too far, then yes, the 
underlying emotion response is as much directed at what 
Draco apprears to be standing for as it is at Draco 
himself.

> Betsy Hp:
>
> They can show their utter contempt for Draco's side of
> the war by treating him with utter contempt (and his 
> body with utter contempt).  So this isn't a reaction 
> based on terror on the Trio's part.  It's rage.  Which
> is, as I've said, understandable after what the Trio 
> (and especially Harry) have been through.  But it's not
> praiseworthy behavior.
> 

bboyminn:

This is similar to what I said, then the Twins step on
Draco & Co, it is a sign of total disrespect and contempt.
I've never bought the 'self defense' aspect of this scene,
at least not from the sense of physical self-defense, but
it is very much self-defense from the moral, emotional,
psychological, and from the self-respect, pride, and
dignity perspective. 

When you are confronted with threatening intimidating 
behavior, you have to stand your ground. You have to make
it perfectly clear that you will not be threatened or
intimidated. Why do bullies bully; because they can, and
when they realize they can't, they don't.

And as a side note: Let's remember that the only thing 
harmed here on both sides are egos. Being cursed as Draco
was, can easily be resolved. Even being stepped on as 
Draco was, while bruising to the ego, really doesn't 
cause any harm. Let's be careful not to inflate this
beyond what it really is, a schoolyard scuffle.

As to the reminder of Betsy_HP's post and her response to
Quick_Silver, let me just add, while I don't 100% agree 
with either, I found both side sbriliantly insightful and
interesting.

Steve/bboyminn