ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey? (WAS: DDM!Snape the definition)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 162665

Zgirnius:
> Of course, Harry didn't *know* it was a poison. But if we are going
> to blame Snape for the UV, he did not know it would lead to his 
> killing Dumbledore either, because he believed he and Dumbledore 
> could manage Draco so as to avoid the issue. Sure, it was a 
> possible outcome, and was in a sense the most straightforward, but 
> then, the most straighforward outcome of drinking an unknown potion 
> concocted by Voldemort to protect one of his Horcruxes is also 
> death.

Jen:  There's no equivalent for the UV in Harry's scenario.  In fact, 
the more I think about the comparison of the cave and the tower 
(which I've always liked), the more it seems like a false analogy.  
In the strictest sense you would have to say Snape wasn't sure if the 
AK would kill Dumbledore just as Harry wasn't sure if the potion 
would kill him, but both trusted Dumbledore completely and agreed to 
follow orders so they did.  I'm thinking now this comparison requires 
more of a symbolic analogy.  Even then there's no UV for Harry so the 
situations aren't completely symmetrical.  

> zgirnius:
> For the UV/Tower to represent a fall from grace by Snape, the
> reason can't be connected to Snape's spying mission. That's 
> a 'good' motive for the Vow. The Vow led to the killing, but not in 
> a direct way, there were other factors involved, some entirely 
> beyond Snape's control. If he took the Vow as part of a bid to re-
> establish his bona fides with Voldemort, in order to still be 
> useful to Dumbledore's side, it was at worst a miscalculation (as 
> opposed to a sin, an evil deed, whatever word it is that I am 
> looking for here).

Jen: If any of this turns out to be true, I agree.  There are many 
things we could learn that would make me re-think the UV.  So far the 
explanation is that all three people at Spinner's End were going 
behind Voldemort's back and Narcissa and Bella were on the outs with 
Voldemort.  I've tried to see something Snape gained for Dumbledore's 
side by entering into the UV which he couldn't obtain without it and 
don't see anything at the moment.  Watching over Draco was a given 
without the UV, Snape and Dumbledore would try to protect him while 
he was under their care at Hogwarts.  

> Jen before:
> His 'worst' came out in HBP and led to his own downfall just like
> it did when he handed over the prophecy to Voldemort.

zgirnius:
> Is this your guess about the UV that you are referring to here?

Jen: Yes, I was thinking about the DADA curse bringing out the worst 
in the other professors and how since the reasons Snape joined 
Voldemort are shrouded perhaps those are his worst attributes that 
led to the Vow.  Or rather weaknesses I should say, negative 
character traits.  Now if the DADA jinx wasn't already activated, 
then I'm really stumped!

zgirnius:
> My bottom line difference with Grey, though, comes down to what we 
> think we have been shown about the character. You insist he is 
> not 'noble'. That's a big shiny word, on which I would not insist
> use to describe Snape, but I disagree that he would never risk his
> life for another individual or a cause. In my understanding of
> canon, he already did, when he embarked on the whole double-agent
> mission at the end of GoF.

Jen: In the instance of returning to Voldemort all of his choices 
were grim and those grim choices were a result of his previous 
actions.  Not to say I don't agree with you about the 'risking his 
life' part because Snape himself taunts Sirius with that fact in 
OOTP.  I'm just waiting to hear how Snape would characterize his 
risk, what he would say he was risking his life *for* and why it 
meant so little to him that he undermined his hard work to take a no-
benefit, high-risk Vow.  Or why the Vow was more important than what 
he was out there risking his life for.

wynnleaf: 
> Yet Harry *did* find himself in the position of agreeing to do
> whatever Dumbledore said regardless of how much it endangered
> Dumbledore. He found himself having to obey that promise even though
> it included pouring liquids down Dumbledore's throat that could have
> killed him. So Harry, Gold Standard for DD's Man that you think he
> is, *still* could agree to actions that could kill Dumbledore. And
> make no mistake, Harry *knew* he was pouring something terrible down
> Dumbledore's throat.

Jen:  The onus is on Dumbledore in the cave.  He tells Harry, a minor 
is his care, that the potion won't kill immediately and even a 
Horcrux would not be worth leaving Harry alone in the cave if 
Dumbledore dropped dead.  Well, and it wouldn't even be for a Horcrux 
because Harry wouldn't be able to drink the rest of the potion alone 
to get to the Horcrux.  So all Dumbledore dropping dead would 
accomplish is Harry having to leave the cave alone and that's not 
impossible, it just doesn't seem like Dumbledore would go so far for 
that outcome.  

Re: the tower, if we find out Dumbledore gave orders to Severus along 
the lines of "Your word, Severus, you will AK me if Draco fails and 
you are present" then I see the partial analogy that both were 
following orders.  The onus is a shared one though because Snape set 
up those terms to begin with by taking the UV. 

wynnleaf:
> You speak as though the choice to "save Harry and Draco and get the
> DE's out of Hogwarts" was something within Snape's grasp, and did 
> not need to include Dumbledore's death. But there was no way to
> remove Harry and Draco without highly significant risk of death
> *unless* he AK'd Dumbledore first and allowed the DE's to think he 
> was on their side. <snip> But hey, so what?  At least Snape 
> wouldn't have killed Dumbledore! Is that really *all* that mattered
> on the tower? All the good guys as die, as long as Snape doesn't AK
> Dumbledore, it was a good decision?

Jen: I've never argued for Snape playing the hero on the tower, I 
don't see how that would accomplish anything and it seems out of 
character for Snape to me.  He's not the type to take an almost 
futile action with a high risk of failure.  So, I don't remember 
exactly what I was going for there but I'm sure this wasn't it, I 
think it was sort of a last second throwaway thought that would have 
been better cut out.

Jen R.