How will Snape come back?

[chrusotoxos]

No: HPFGUIDX 162700


Why is it that raising a question gives nobody an asnwer, but instead rises a thousand 
more questions? I just hate these books sometimes...Seems so cruel tht we're forced to 
wait...but at the same time, the Potter books are again an example of our modern world 
going backwards, as Umberto Eco says (he's written this clever book lately, arguing that 
modern inventions and political situations are bringing our world back in the XIX, or even 
farther: think about Crusades, but also Ipod...); the last time so many people were eagerly 
waiting to know whether their hero would survive or die has probaly been set at the end of 
the nineteenth century, when all those great novels - Dickens, Dumas, Hugo etc - were 
published weekly, one chapter after the other.

Ok, after this outburst which doesn't clear Snape's mess, let's see how carol has earned 
her star:

> Carol:
> Thank you very much. As a matter of fact, I have a PhD in literature
> though I no longer teach college English and am now a copyeditor.

I knew it! (grins)

> Carol:
> Ah, yes. Harry's selective memory. You may be right. But I still think
> it will take Snape doing something that Harry doesn't expect, like
> healing one of his injured friends instead of killing him/her or
> taking him/her to Voldemort, to persuade Harry to at least consider
> shutting up and hearing what Snape has to say. Or, as I said at
> another post, Snape tying Harry up and forcing him to listen.

I rather think that Harry may listen to him in the opposite situation, as someone else here 
said. As we've seen, when Harry is forced to submit he can only think about revenge, 
about how he'd like to boil/disembowel/beat up his opponent. But if he had the upper 
hand, as he had in the Shrieking Shack, he'd felt it as his moral duty to listen before 
pronouncing a judgment.

> Carol:
> I still don't think that Snape *feared* Lupin (or Sirius Black). You
> don't fear someone you think is weak and Snape seldom shows fear--or
> feels it, IMO. (He did know what he faced in returning to Voldemort
> and his pale face and glittering eyes showed a fear that he had
> mastered, outweighed by what he had to do. and he was afraid for Draco
> in HBP, "Unbreakable Vow" chapter. But I see no sign that he feared
> Lupin in PoA or anywhere else. He just thought that Lupin was the
> werewolf accomplice of the man who intended to murder Harry. And he
> knows, as you say, that Lupin is and always has been weak. I don't
> think he intended to perform any Unforgiveables on Lupin, whom he tied
> up with cords cast from his wand, and he resisted the temptation to
> kill Sirius Black, whom he intended to turn in to Fudge, who would
> give him to the Dementors. No fear there, but no understanding,
> either. Still, maybe they understand each other better now. Trust, I'm
> not so sure. 

Mmmh. Probably you have a point, and I've read too many fanfics. But all the same, Snape 
wouldn't go to someone he despises. And maybe (claps her hands excitedly) what Snape 
dislikes so much in Lupin is what he's afraid to find within himself: a surrender to his 
darkest feelings. I mean, obviously Lupin cannot help it, but Snape's rational part could 
certainly prevent him from joining the DE, and didn't. So he sees himself trapped, and 
there's no potion that would help him to be a better person.

> Carol:
> I don't know. I picture Snape sending him a message using his new
> Patronus, something Dumbledoreish that would persuade Lupin of his
> loyalties. 

Ok, THIS is the point we all should be debating (and probably have, except I missed it). JKR 
said that Snape's Boggart and Snape's Patronus would be very very important, so maybe 
this solves all our problems. A Boggart can't lie, as far as we know. Maybe if Harry sees it 
he'll be convinced at once of Snape's loyalties. But *what* is is?
As we've seen, adults' Boggarts are serious problems: Molly sees her children dead, Lupin 
the moon, which makes him uncontrollable and dangerous.Harry, as the true warrior he 
has to be, sees Fear iself. And Snape? Maybe, after all, he'll see DD dead, the death of his 
only possibility of redemption. But now he's dead...what if he sees himself? Urgh, going a 
bit Freudian here...

> Carol:
> I'm not so sure. I think that Lucius does love his son. Otherwise,
> what would be the point in Voldemort's seeking to punish him by
> killing Draco (I mean, assigning him a task that he thought Draco
> couldn't complete and then killing him for his failure)? I think that
> Snape's and Lucius's friendship will come into play, along with
> Narcissa's gratitude. 

'Slippery friend' indeed. I'm still not convinced that Lucius would openly disobey LV, but 
maybe he'll do it, turn his coat at the last moment and be honored as a hero by the 
Ministry...what a lesson this would be for all the kids! And it would avoid the danger of a 
sirupy end to book 7, with all the good ones drinking and the bad ones in prison, as in 
Asterix' cartoons.

> Carol:
> Exactly. It's odd that she's always been Dumbledore's Woman with
> regard to Snape and came back around to something close to that
> position, even researching the HBP nickname at a time when Harry felt
> nothing but hatred for Snape and regret that he'd been attracted to
> the HBP as a friend. But Hermione often sees other people more clearly
> than she sees herself. 

This is indeed one of the features which make her character so well-constructed. I do 
think it's normal, for a bright teenager, to see everything clearly - except oneself. I wonder 
if she'll continue in her investigations and find out more about Snape's mum. After all 
we've never seen Snape at Christmas (am I right here?) and JKR did point out that some of 
the teachers had families of their own.

> Carol:
> My primary reason for doubting a Boromir-style death for Snape is that
> JKR likes to surprise the readers, and she seems to think that no one
> will guess what she's up to with Snape, so the obvious way of dealing
> with her repentant anti-hero--dying after performing a heroic deed--is
> unlikely to be her choice. It's too predictable. 

Ok, I partly agree. But as surprised as we all are at her creativity, we should bear in mind 
that this kind of books have a pre-defined plot. The Fellowship, the Quest, the Mentor... 
This predictability of novels is what makes myths, fairytales and books, even the Potter 
serie, so adored by everyone. And I don't think this is a weakness: we all knew (the adults, 
at least) that DD was going to die; we knew it since Book 1. But it was still shocking and 
suprising when it actually happened, because JKR is good enough a writer to make it so.

Carol:
>And there's no way
> that she'll leave Snape unexplained. Harry's been asking questions
> about him, and Dumbledore has been giving him partial answers or
> refusing to answer him, for six books now. She's not going to leave
> Harry's questions, or the reader's, unanswered. Snape is too important
> a character, and too loved or hated forby the fans, for her to
> neglect. 

Maybe you're right and I become cynical with old age. But still, a voice in my head keeps 
saying, "She's going to answer all our questions, uh? And what about how DD got back 
Marvolo's ring? She kept us wondering about that story for PAGES, and in the end the guy 
just died!" 

> 
> chrustoxos: 
> > And yet everything, imo, points to this: Snape is in hiding, and
> trust no one of the Order enough to contact them; excellent plot
> diversion a character switching sides at the last moment; powerful
> scene of a dying Potions master, surprise at Harry wishing Lv's death
> even more because LV killed Snape.
> 
> Carol:
> I don't quite understand you here. 

Yes, I was powerfully unclear. I was trying to see the thing from the point of view of the 
plot, and not of the character, but failed. Must re-think it.

> But if a character switches
> sides, it won't be DDM!Snape, who is already on Harry's side. Harry
> just doesn't know it. 

Well, that's the point. We follow Harry's point of view, after all. 

>Nor do I understand why Snape would be surprised thy
> Harry's killing LV; that's what he wants him to do and why he's been
> protecting him this whole time. 

Yes, that was an unclear part, sorry for my English. I meant that WE're going to be 
surprised, because, after years of wishing and plotting Snape's death (or at least suffering), 
Harry will find himself hating LV even more *because* he killed Snape, and not *despite* 
it.

>That type of scene just
> wouldn't work with Harry and
> Snape--though if Harry dies (or seems to die) along with Voldemort, I
> can actually imagine a dead (or seemingly dead) Harry in the arms of a
> weeping Snape, who feels that he's failed yet again.)

Mmh. You're possibly right about the fact that a Boromir scene is not suitable in the 
Potterverse, but I see even less likely the other way round. Snape crying over Harry' body?? 
I mean, he may be an intersting character and it may be amusing to have him as a guest 
(in full body bind, though, and with his eyes closed), but he's still a bastard. He doesn't 
scare the hell out of his students to prepare them to future life; he doesn't secretly keep 
Harry's pictures in his drawers, nor Lily's; and he most certainly won't be sorry if Harry 
dies. He wants him to stay alive long enough to destroy LV, and he's angry at the boy for 
not trying hard enough, but that's all. Snape protects Harry for self-preservation, as he 
partly admits to Bellatrix and Narcissa. And we still don't know how a Life's Debt works, 
how binding it is, and when it's considered paid. So maybe that's the simple reason why 
DD trusted Snape: he's still indebted to James Potter, and thus cannot, mentally or 
physically, harm Harry, but is bound to protect him, even unwillingly, until Harry himself 
release him from his debt. Only Harry doesn't know this, and Snape is too much humiliated 
by this fact to admit it to him. Snape may plot Emmeline Vance's death, but he cannot 
touch Harry. How about this?

> Carol:
> Ah, but I think that, like Petunia with her two outbursts (in SS/PS
> and OoP), he's dying to tell his story. He's keeping a lot inside and
> imagine the thrill he'll feel in being able to reveal to the Chosen
> One that despite hating him as an arrogant and dishonest little
> mediocrity and preserving his own cover as DD's Man, he's been helping
> and protecting Harry all along.

I hadn't seen this part of him, but you're right. A life like that must lead to the need of 
outburst, of finally telling it all, mustn't it?

> 
> Carol, feeling that she hasn't earned her golden stars yet but
> thinking that this post is too long already
>

chrus, who has her certainties splattered around but nonetheless looking for a golden star 
from her secret closet.