Wrong-headed Compassion/The UV(was ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey?)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162749

> Magpie:
> <SNIP>
> > Otoh, why not just use this defense for Draco? He's got every 
> reason to 
> > think Harry is going to kill him in the bathroom. It was self 
> defense. He's 
> > got to get Harry first. Harry's hurt him in the past (more than 
> Draco's hurt 
> > Harry), he's been stalking him all year. He needed to jump in in 
> the moment 
> > he had an opening, when Harry was down, and not only disable him 
> but keep 
> > him from trying to attack Draco again. If Harry's got a little 
> ouchie for a 
> > minute boo hoo! This is war! You can't advance to the next level 
> of the 
> > video game if you think about other people like a Goody Twoshoes!
> 
> Alla:
> 
> The difference of course would be that Draco may think that Harry 
> has a reason to kill him ( no matter how irrational this thought 
> seems to me), but Draco shows Harry that he attacks him with 
> Unforgiveable and Harry does not attack him first.
> I mean, is the desire to absolve Draco so great that you honestly 
> and truly equal these two?

Magpie:
I was being sarcastic--I don't really want to absolve Draco. But if 
I was dead set on doing it I would probably just find excuses for 
why Harry did give Draco reason to think he was going to kill him 
despite not throwing an Unforgivable (which are not all deadly any 
way). Harry actually did throw a deadly spell, and I'd probably use 
that as retroactive evidence that Draco should have feared death. 
I'd find a way to make everything he did self-defense even if he 
struck first or wasn't in physical danger.

Magpie: 
> > So both boys are even. Harry was great for throwing 
Sectumsempra. 
> Draco was 
> > great for throwing Crucio.

> Alla:
> 
> Erm... what? 
> 
> Alla, who wonders if somebody took Magpie's place in front of her 
> computer to write this post.
> 
> I am only half-joking. :)

Magpie:
I was almost completely joking.:-) Don't worry, I don't actually 
agree with that defense of Draco. I don't agree with the attitude 
about Harry either. I'm not the biggest fan of Dumbledore, but I'd 
much rather have him as a general than someone with this view of war 
or fighting.

Carol:
Since you want JKR to be consistent in depicting the moral values she
preaches through Dumbledore, the advocate of mercy, trust, and second
chances, I would think you'd approve of Harry's action [to 
Wormtail], which in some ways foreshadows Dumbledore's mercy to 
Draco on the tower.

Magpie:
I don't think there's any thing stupid in Harry's actions with 
Wormtail either, myself. What he does is hand him over to the 
authorities to essentially be killed, just like Barty is. Wormtail 
escapes because of an unusual occurrance--a werewolf. Saying that 
what Harry did was stupid suggests that this is some kind of rule 
one could apply all around, as if it's always better to just kill 
your suspect or your criminal because what if some bizarre 
circumstances allows him to escape on the way to the 
prison/executioner?  It may be appealing because it cuts off chances 
for the prisoner to escape or get off without punishment, but more 
likely, imo, it would just lead to people murdering people. (PoA is, 
after all, all about somebody who was falsely imprisoned with the 
real culprit gone free because the most important thing was making 
sure he didn't get away. Every little bit of forbearance Sirius got 
was important.)

Nikkalmati:
I am just trying to figure out how this would work. LV called in 
Snape and tells him he plans to give Draco a chance to redeem his 
name and that he will be trying to kill DD this year? If that is 
what happened, he had to tell  Snape to stay out of it, because 
otherwise working together with Snape, Draco could succeed, which is 
not what LV wants. He knows as HOH and friend of the family, Snape 
would be likely to help Draco, if asked, and Draco was likely
to get desperate enough to ask. I guess if he really wanted Draco to 
kill DD (or thought it was remotely possible in his wildest dreams) 
he certainly would tell Snape to help Draco. So we must assume LV 
told SS to stay out of it.

Magpie:
I don't think he quite had to tell Snape to stay out of it. Snape 
himself says, "I think he expects me to do it in the end." I think 
that's intentionally ambiguous and may actually refer to both LV and 
Dumbledore (or either). But for LV it makes sense: Snape has been 
living in Dumbledore's camp for years. It's totally in Voldemort's 
character to think that Snape killing Dumbledore would be great--
proof that he's had a spy in DD's camp all along, and perhaps also a 
way of making Snape demonstrate he's really anti-Dumbledore. (Even 
if he doesn't totally think Snape's a traitor, he would still get 
off on making Snape kill any positive feelings he might have had for 
DD after his years with him.)

What LV wants for Draco is to die. He doesn't have to die because he 
failed. He seems to expect Draco to die in the attempt. But I don't 
think he'd have to go so far as to tell Snape not to help Draco--or 
even that Snape wouldn't be allowed to help Draco in ways that he 
could--any more than Bellatrix isn't allowed to help Draco. He seems 
to just say that Draco's the one that's got to do the deed. The plan 
is secret at the beginning but it seems like a rather open secret 
after a while--and if Snape's been told the plan there's even more 
reason Draco ought to be able to ask him for help here and there. 

I think the fact that it's really a suicide mission is not something 
LV would need to say out loud--it's not, for instance, like the TWT 
where Barty Crouch is supposed to force Harry into this deadly 
contest but also make sure that Harry is not killed in the contest 
(in this plan that would translate to Draco being forced to kill 
Dumbledore while Voldemort actively tries to stop him or make it 
more difficult). I imagine it more that Voldemort simply gave Draco 
the task and snickered when the kid was out of the room or made some 
ominous remark about his chances. He figures the kid's just dead 
meat either way: he dies in the attempt, he's punished by death by 
the good side for the attempt or for the actual murder (if hell 
freezes over and he manages it) or he's killed for failing.

Nikkalmati:
If LV told Snape to stay out of it, Snape was directly going against 
LV's orders by asking Draco to come see him, questioning him at 
Slughorn's party, giving Crabbe and Goyle extra lessons, trying 
Legilimancy on Draco, and following Draco around. Seems risky for SS.

On the night on the tower, did SS know Draco was about to act or did 
LV keep that fact from him, risking SS intervening? Did SS upon 
hearing DE's were in the castle violate his instructions by running 
to the tower and killing DD? That would be hard to explain.

I rather visualize SS kneeling at LV's feet apologizing "I'm sorry, 
My Lord, I didn't know Draco was supposed to be the one. I killed DD 
in ignorance of your true wishes, but at least the old bag is gone."

Magpie:
I think Snape is taking a risk there, but only in the sense that 
he's really trying to head off Draco's murder attempts. I don't 
think, as I explained above, that LV would be particularly angry to 
know that Snape was trying to help.

I don't think Snape knew the plan was going to happen on the Tower 
that night, but that that was because Draco kept it from him, not 
LV. I don't think Snape's violating instructions by killing 
Dumbledore himself would be so bad, since Voldemort still gets what 
he wants, perhaps all around. Snape kills Dumbledore, which is good 
because Dumbledore is dead--Snape's doing it is possibly what LV 
wanted "in the end." Draco didn't kill Dumbledore, so he still 
failed. So I don't think Snape would have to say he was ignorant of 
LV's true wishes. I can more imagine him saying (and this is just my 
imagining so obviously not canon) that Draco did not kill 
Dumbledore, but he did amazingly set him up so he could be taken 
out. When it became apparent Draco couldn't do it (maybe he'd gloss 
over that part to protect Draco) he thought it was too good a shot 
to pass up. So Snape was acting as a DE loyal to LV's cause, and one 
who felt that just as LV didn't expect Draco to kill Dumbledore, he 
did eventually expect or plan for Snape to kill him. If he 
overstepped his bounds, he's sorry, but he can be pretty sure that 
he's overstepped his bounds in a way he can handle.

-m