The Cabinet Plan...again (was:Re: The UV (was ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey?)

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 162820

> > a_svirn:
 That's what makes Draco such a poor soldier for any cause, 
> > Voldemort's or Dumbledore's alike. He has no objection to 
> murdering 
> > people so long that he doesn't have to do or witness actual 
> killing. 
> > Poisoning, plotting and planning for others to do the job – 
that's 
> > more in his line. 
> 
> Magpie:
> I think that's why Dumbledore can't be meaning what you are saying 
> he means (and why I disagree with all interpretations that say that 
> Draco didn't feel anything about Katie and Ron--if he almost-killed 
> from a slight distance with no problem, I'd need more explanation 
as 
> to why he couldn't kill Dumbledore). Dumbledore is throughout the 
> scene, imo, saying that Draco did have a problem with murder, 
> period. 

a_svirn:
So he does. And that's just another instance of Dumbledore's being 
hypocritical. Because all those problems were in fact technical, yet 
Dumbledore made them sound as if they were moral problems.  Draco 
made two honest-to-God murder attempts, and that's a fact. He let a 
group of hit-men into Hogwarts to finish Dumbledore off, and that's 
another fact. Whatever he felt about it didn't stop him from doing it.

> Magpie:
> Poisoning and planning for others to do the job was not any 
> more in his line than killing Dumbledore himself is--not because he 
> didn't almost do just that, obviously, but because of the way it 
> affected him. 

a_svirn:
So would you say that Macbeth and his Lady weren't really murderers? 
I mean, look how the whole thing affected them! And I don't think 
that Pettigrew is particularly happy about murdering people, but 
needs must. Of course, Draco's record is no match to Pettigrew's – 
yet – but he made a start of sorts. Not a very promising start, 
because he feels queasy about killing people with his own hand, but 
he's very clever about arranging for them to be killed. 

> Magpie:
> As a human being who is not a killer (in this case 
> killer meaning someone who has no problem with killing) killing 
from 
> a short distance was damaging to him too. 

a_svirn:
What makes "this case" such a special one, then? In ninety-nine cases 
out of hundred, I imagine, you would say that a killer is someone who 
kills. 

> Magpie:
If it wasn't I think he'd 
> already be a killer in his heart and wouldn't be in the shape he's 
> in on the Tower. And he'd probably kill Dumbledore.

a_svirn:
I don't know what it means, "killer at heart". He is not a 
bloodthirsty brute, like Grayback, or an insane sadist like his aunt, 
nor is he a hardened criminal. On the whole, he would rather not to 
kill. But he accepts the necessity of murder and acts accordingly. I 
don't know what it says about his heart, but it certainly shows that 
he's capable of murder. 

> > > Betsy Hp:
> > > And yet, Draco proved himself well able to be Voldemort's 
> hitman.  
> > He 
> > > had Dumbledore dead to rights. 
> > 
> > a_svirn:
> > No, he didn't. He simply had an incredible and completely 
> unforeseen 
> > luck to find Dumbledore incapacitated. If it hadn't been for that 
> he 
> > wouldn't have been in a position to complete his assignment. 
> 
> Magpie:
> It doesn't matter how he did it, he had him dead to rights and 
chose 
> not to kill him. He was in the position to complete his assignment 
> and knew it--and chose not to. Dumbledore's state was very lucky 
for 
> Dumbledore in that sense, I think. Much easier for him to make the 
> case he was trying to make to Draco, imo, while being so truly 
> helpless. (Unlucky in other ways, obviously.)

a_svirn:
Sorry, I phrased it badly. I didn't mean that Draco hadn't Dumbledore 
dead to rights. I meant that he didn't show himself as an able hit-
man. 


> Magpie:
> I don't think we can count his morals out just yet--if it's just 
> about his intelligence it's not just Draco who suffers, but 
> Dumbledore. I don't think JKR would be interested in that kind of 
> scene or choice. I agree with Betsy that Draco wasn't weighing the 
> advantage when he went over having Dumbledore in his power. 

a_svirn:
Then you disagree with canon, because that's what Draco says. Even 
after Dumbledore had presented Draco with a choice he was still 
thinking about the advantage of killing Dumbledore. 

'But I got this far, didn't I?' he said slowly. They thought I'd die 
in the attempt, but I'm here ... and you're in my power ... I'm the 
one with the wand ... you're at my mercy ...' 

> Magpie:
> What he's going over underlines the fact that he's making his 
choice from 
> a position of strength and actually giving up what he had valued so 
> much before. Dumbledore was at his mercy, he'd proved himself more 
> than anyone thought he would, and yet he would not have killed 
> Dumbledore. 

a_svirn:
Except that Dumbledore himself said that Draco got it all wrong and 
it was Dumbledore's mercy that counted. And only after Dumbledore 
pointed that out, did Draco start to lower his wand. Because he 
finally acknowledged that he would find neither glory, nor mercy from 
Voldemort's hands. 

'No, Draco,' said Dumbledore quietly. 'It is my mercy, and not yours, 
that matters now.' 
Malfoy did not speak. His mouth was open, his wand hand still 
trembling. Harry thought he saw it drop by a fraction - 

> Magpie:
>Given the themes of the book I can't see that as a 
> purely practical move-and I suspect the acceptence of Dumbledore's 
> mercy specifically is important morally.

a_svirn:
Well, "everything's got a moral if only you can find it", but what 
exactly is the moral of this? I'd say either Draco is in need of 
mercy, or he is not a position of strength. It's impossible to have 
it both ways. He acknowledged a moment ago that his Lord had sent him 
to sure death, and his comrades-in-arms had stood by and watched. He 
might find favour with the Dark Lord if he kills Dumbledore, but what 
the odds? His life and those of his family would still depend on 
Voldemort's whims. And he had finally realised there is no glory in 
being a slave, even a privileged one. So he (probably, but not for 
sure) chose to accept an escape route Dumbledore had offered. What 
else any sane person would choose under the circumstances?