DDM!Harry and Snape/The Cabinet Plan...again (was:Re: The UV (was ESE, DDM, OFH, or Grey?)

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 162848

> Magpie:
> With the Macbeth's, well, they turn out to be kind of driven to 
> self-destruction by their murders so perhaps a case could be made 
that it 
> didn't really suit them.:-)  

a_svirn:
Oh, yes, they certainly didn't. But even if they weren't "killers at 
heart" they were still murderers. 

> Magpie:
But I can't really compare them because they're 
> in a different story and I think JKR is saying something different 
in hers. 

a_svirn:
Since Rowling herself used Macbeth to illustrate a point she is 
making in HBP I feel justified to follow her example. 

> Magpie:
> In JKR's book actual murder is given, imo, as a big barrier to 
cross. Coming 
> close to murder seems to be sometimes more of a warning sign to the 
would-be 
> murderer more than a done deal.

a_svirn:
And yet, this barrier hasn't been crossed only by accident.

> Magpie:
> I would say the way it seems to me (and I obviously mean this is 
how I think 
> it's being set up in the story--I'm not applying this to real 
people who 
> almost kill) is that before making the attempts murder isn't real 
to Draco 
> and without that dose of reality he wasn't honestly making a choice 
about 
> murder. He's been brought up to think killing is fine, he can 
imagine it and 
> come up with ways to do it, but the reality is still different. 
He's already 
> guilty of almost killing people, but can he live with an actual 
murder on 
> his conscience now that he has a taste of what that would be like? 
And 
> presumably a big reason why he doesn't is because the near-misses 
showed him 
> what murder really was.

a_svirn:
Whatever the reason, his natural inclinations or his upbringing, it 
comes to the same thing – in HBP Draco *was* capable of murder. 
Whether he is capable of it now remains to be seen, but I, for one, 
don't see why he should be affected by his near-misses if even the 
best of the good guys shrug them off as something unimportant. 

> Magpie:
> I'm not disagreeing with canon I'm interpreting Draco's motivation 
> differently there.  You see it as him thinking about the possible 
advantages 
> of killing Dumbledore. I see him letting go of what's been 
important to him 
> for so long, and part of that is recognizing how close he is to 
it.  Killing 
> Dumbledore is not an option ever in the scene. 

a_svirn:
Such interpretation renders the whole business on the Tower 
meaningless, I am afraid. What *is* this scene about if not about 
Draco choosing between the two options – to kill or not to kill? 
Remove the first option and what is left? A foregone conclusion? Poor 
Draco! He's been a pawn in the big game throughout HBP and now you 
rob him of the responsibility for the most important choice he seems 
to have started to make! 

> Magpie:
Draco's never made a move to 
> kill Dumbledore, and Dumbledore recognizes right away that whatever 
he's got 
> to fear, this kid killing him isn't it. So Draco wouldn't go over 
the 
> advantages of killing because it's off the table--and that's not 
what he 
> says, either. He talks about where he's gotten to up until this 
moment--he 
> didn't get killed, he got this far, he's got Dumbledore at his 
mercy.

a_svirn:
I don't understand why it's "off the table" if he has "Dumbledore at 
his mercy". It hadn't been on the table when Draco started this 
business – his only options were "to do or die" and he fully expected 
to die. But when he came in and saw Dumbledore incapacitated he 
suddenly was presented with two other options, and both held certain 
appeal. It took some time for him to digest this new development, 
still more to access it. That's what he was talking about. 


> Magpie:
> But Dumbledore was, imo, speaking spiritually. Dumbledore's not 
warning him 
> about Voldemort in the scene. I think that reading reduces the 
concept of 
> mercy for Dumbledore--he's just using it like Draco is using it or 
like a DE 
> would use it. He's just another tough guy.  I think Dumbledore is 
using 
> mercy in a far more important sense (some would say a Christian 
sense). He's 
> offering mercy to his murderer. That's what Draco's accepting, not 
just 
> protection from Voldemort. I think that's why it will stay with 
Draco in the 
> next book long after Dumbledore's practical offer of witness 
protection 
> ceases to be an option. Basically, I think it's a powerful line and 
far more 
> central to Dumbledore's character than just "I won't kill you but 
snake-eyes 
> will."

a_svirn:
I feel increasingly like Shylock now, because I just don't get this 
Christian Mercy bit. What do you think Dumbledore is offering Draco 
then? Absolution? It's not his to offer, even from Christian point of 
view. He could and did offer forgiveness, but that's not the same 
thing as mercy. To offer mercy you'd need to be in a position to do 
so. Rowling tells us that Dumbledore is no Christ, so he couldn't 
offer Draco salvation by atoning vicariously for his sins. Besides, 
what sins? He just called Draco an innocent a few moments ago.