[HPforGrownups] Re: DDM!Harry and Snape/Grey!Snape

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 162885

> Magpie:
> I think canon makes it clear that no, it wasn't. Draco didn't kill
> Dumbledore. Snape did.

a_svirn:
Yes canon does make it clear. But that's kind of inconsistent. We
know that Draco is not a murderer only by accident, because his
first two plots have miscarried. That's what Dumbledore himself
says. Yet his third plot actually worked, if not exactly as planned.
Why, then, Draco's not a murderer?

Magpie:
His third plan was a plan to get DEs into the castle, with the understanding 
that after that plan worked he'd kill Dumbledore. But after that plan 
worked, he didn't kill Dumbledore.

One could make a case for Draco being responsible for Dumbledore's death 
anyway, certainly. But it seems like the plot turns on his not being his 
murderer. It's magic that way.

a_svirn:
I mean, if, when he lowered his wand, he made a choice, than we could have 
said, "Thanks Merlin, he made a choice not to kill". But according to you he 
didn't. There wasn't ever a question of a choice. Yet there was a murder, 
one that was arranged by Draco. And -according to you - he didn't choose not 
to kill. In that case I'd say, his luck has finally failed him and he lost 
his innocence, after all.

Magpie:
If you take every single action someone does as a choice then Draco is 
indeed making the choice not to kill from the minute he comes into the 
scene. What I have been arguing all this time is not that Draco is not 
responsible for his own not killing, but that no where in the scene is there 
a moment where we're not seeing signs that Draco is never going to kill 
anyone. I'm saying that's not the central dilemma of the scene.

Bullying seems to be completely outside of Neville Longbottom's character. 
There are scenes where Neville does not bully. I would say that bullying is 
"off the table" for this character. But now that I see how you're taking it 
I'd say Neville is making the choice not to bully just as Draco is making 
the choice not to kill. I tend to not frame things that way, but I will to 
be more clear. If we go back to Dumbledore's line about our choices showing 
who we are, Neville not bullying and Draco not killing are both showing who 
they are, so they are both choices.

So imo this is a scene about showing Draco's nature as not that of what 
Dumbledore is calling "a killer." It's not a scene about Draco wavering 
between two appealing choices of killing or not killing. Killing is simply 
not appealing to him by this point. And that does have a moral dimension. 
He's not just physically unable to kill--obviously he is physically capable 
of it. But the prospect makes him shy away, and his voice crack, and look 
sick.

I think the negative feelings he *does* feel over his past murders is part 
of what causes this. His boasts in the Tower, imo, are about what I've 
described elsewhere, trying to hide the fact that he does not want to kill. 
If you lose the idea that he feels no remorse and was fine killing before, 
you also lose the problem of Dumbledore offering absolution to the 
unrepentent for no reason. The scene makes a lot more sense and goes down 
much easier.

So allow me to correct myself. You're absolutely right--my bad. Draco is 
choosing not to kill. He's choosing not to kill from the top of the scene. 
He's choosing not to kill at all moments except for the one moment when he's 
not only choosing not to kill but also choosing to accept Dumbledore's offer 
of protection.

And that's something Harry can take ahead into the next book. Instead of a 
scene where Dumbledore dies trying to make a minor deal with a DE to take 
his family out of play that shows Harry (without moving him at all) that 
Draco is exactly the way he guessed he was in August, Harry's got important 
information about Draco's nature that he can trust and possibly use to the 
advantage of his cause.

-m