Grey!Snape and Character Growth

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 162899

Jen wrote: <snip> I see the version of Snape you guys see very 
clearly because when I closed HBP for the first time I read the same
story.  I argued early on for DDM!Snape, pretty strongly if I 
remember <g>.
>
> I didn't mean to imply that Snape and Dumbledore don't know who 
> Snape is (I think that's what you meant?).  That's *why* the tower 
> was successful, because only Dumbledore and Snape know the truth.
> What I meant is that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore and allied to him, 
> but he doesn't fully accept Dumbledore's love magic just as he
didn't accept Voldemort's version.  I think the run across the grounds
was one example, he still believes Harry must close his mind to defeat
Voldemort and we know Harry must open his heart.  
> 
> But Snape *did* choose a path to be a double agent or 'dual person'.
I mean, there's a reason Dumbledore has to proclaim his trust far and
 wide, right?  Yet we find out in HBP no one else really believed
Snape which means he was a helluva double-agent in the end!  
> 
> The reason I don't see this making a poor revelation is because the
loyalty revelation is *not* the biggest issue on the table to me 
regarding Snape.  Harry having an 'aha' moment about whose side Snape
is on is just another Sirius moment--"I thought your were evil!  
You're on my side and what's more, we have a lot in common."   <snip>
 
Betsy Hp:
> > But... Harry's *already* seen that Snape is a lot like him on the
inside.  He's had two sneak attacks of "OMG, I'm relating to SNAPE!"
at current count.  Do you really think Harry's feeling after the
pensieve scene and his bonding with the half-blood Prince were
examples of JKR spinning her wheels?
> 
Jen: 
> No, no!  I love these moments, as well as when Harry gets to see
bits from Snape's childhood and likely when the Prank is revealed. 
It's just that I don't see them leading to the loyalty revelation, or
 leading there indirectly.  Like you, I see Snape as already redeemed,
he's been redeeming himself for years and Harry will get that part
*after* he gets the bigger deal.  Snape's role will actually be the 
biggest one for Harry's growth because when he can see Snape through
Lily's and Dumbledore's eyes of compassion, he will finally 
understand the power he holds that Voldemort does not.  When he can 
truly feel empathy for the boy Snape was, what he lost, why he made
the huge mistakes he did and his genuine feelings of remorse and pain,
then Harry will understand he was loyal all along.
> 
> Even if you don't agree, maybe that's an urgh scenario for you <g>, 
> that still fits the criteria for Harry learning from Snape, doesn't 
> it? <snip>
>
Carol responds:
Okay, now I'm really confused because I agree with almost everything
you say here. The only "urgh" part for me is "Lily's eyes of
compassion," which doesn't fit with the Pensieve scene and to me is
movie contamination (the Lupin/bridge scene in the PoA film).

I absolutely agree that Harry will need to see and understand Snape's
struggle as a step toward defeating Voldemort through Love. What I
don't see is what you don't talk about here, a struggle on Snape's
part with his loyalty to Dumbledore. He's already sacrificed
everything he had for Dumbledore. He's not going to change sides
now--especially not if Harry has to understand that Snape is already
redeemed and on Dumbledore's side.

Aside from that, I guess you're rejecting the DDM!Snape label because
it relates only to Snape's loyalty. But as Magpie recently pointed
out, Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore is very important. It's a personal
loyalty to the only man who trusted him, the only man he could come to
for help when he wanted to change sides. Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore
and Dumbledore's (fully merited) trust in him is the crux of the
matter. Until Harry understands that the murder of Dumbledore was,
paradoxically, an act of extreme loyalty to Dumbledore, not
self-preservation but self-sacrifice (not of Snape's life but of
everything that was meaningful and comfortable in his life), then he
can't forgive Snape. He can't see all the other things that you're
calling Grey!Snape."

Anyway, I think that Snape's moment of decision is long past. He's
been acting for Dumbledore and against Voldemort, protecting and
trying to teach Harry while nevertheless hating him, walking a
tightrope not in the sense of conflicting loyalties but in the sense
of being in constant danger of exposure and death, since about the
time Harry was born and Snape realized how Voldemort interpreted the
Prophecy.

At any rate, it seems that we agree on more than we disagree about. I
think you're rejecting the label rather than the concept, if I'm
interpreting your views correctly. Maybe Redeemed!Snape would work
better as a label for this view of Snape than Grey!Snape, which
implies that he'll be tempted to reject Dumbledore and join Voldie in
earnest (an idea that I see no evidence for anywhere).

Carol, who will continue to use the term DDM!Snape because she thinks
that Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore is the key to Harry's forgiveness
of and compassion for Snape (for which the seeds have already been
sown by those other revelations)