Grey!Snape and Character Growth (was:Voldemort's Plan for Snape & the Ring..

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 162903

Carol earlier:
> ...and it is Harry who has to learn Dumbledore's lessons (mercy, 
> forgiveness, trust in Snape). Snape is Snape, and he's not going to 
> change, either in essential character or in loyalty, IMO. We, and 
> Harry, will simply find out that he is and remains DDM (or whatever).
> 
> Jen: Yes, complete agreement.  Although I feel like you are saying
in most of your other arguments that there is nothing to forgive Snape 
> *for*, which will completely ruin this part of the story.  If Harry  
> is to learn about mercy and trusting Snape, see him through the eyes 
> of compassion, there must be things Harry needs to feel merciful and 
> forgiving about.
> 
Carol responds:
Then I must be taking for granted what I thought was obvious: Harry
has to forgive Snape for killing Dumbledore primarily, but also for
revealing the Prophecy to Voldemort and thereby playing a role in the
deaths of Harry's parents, even though Snape strove to prevent that
from happening and has been redeeming himself ever since. (As for
minor stuff like unfairness to Harry in class, which is completely
balanced out by Snape's watching over and protecting and trying to
teach him, I don't think that will matter in the end.) I guess I don't
see how what Harry needs to forgive Snape for isn't obvious. It's the
same things Snape needs to forgive himself for.


> Carol: There's no room in the story for Snape's own internal 
> conflict, which has long since been suppressed or overcome. 
> 
> Jen: I see his loyalty as static, but his person is not. Once again 
> he made a mistake with the UV that contributed to an innocent 
> person's death and this time by his own hand.  Snape salvaged a 
> situation that he himself had a part in setting up.  Maybe Snape 
> expects Harry to 'thank him on bended knee' for saving his life just 
> like he expected James to, when he himself made a contribution to 
> both needing saving in the first place? 

Carol:
Well, that's PoA, at a time when he thinks that Sirius Black and his
werewolf accomplice are out to murder Harry, so naturally he expects a
little gratitude. And he does dislike what he perceives as Harry's
likeness to James: rule-breaking, arrogance, dishonesty, etc. But the
adult Snape's Slytherinish instincts and training have always been in
conflict with his principles (e.g., a debt of honor to the hated James
and loyal, life-risking service to Dumbledore) just as his hatred of
Harry has been in conflict with his efforts to save and protect him
since at least Book 1. I think his character (if that's what you mean
by "person" *is* static and has been since he made the all-important
decision to "return to our side" before Godric's Hollow. His adult
personality (or persona, since part of his personality is an image
he's cultivated as a reaction against his pale, scraggly teenage self
is not static, exactly, since he reacts differently with different
people, but at least consistent with regard to Harry: cold and
sarcastic most of the time, occasionally violently angry, but always
secretly watchful, always trying to keep Harry out of trouble, whether
it's preventing him from going to Hogwarts or keeping him from running
down the wrong corridor because DD is coming downstairs.

Carol earlier:
> > Sad to say, Snape has had his book. We'll find out more about him,
of course. We'll have to for the reveal/reversal to make sense. But
most of it will be snippets of Snape's past and none of it will be 
insight into the inner workings of Snape's mind. 
> 
> Jen:  I don't expect delving into the inner workings of Snape's mind 
> to reveal some information about him.  POA and GOF both delved into 
> stories about the central figure whom Harry was going to have a 
> revelation about and they were quite satisfying in detail and scope 
> without being a therapy session.  I don't understand this part?  I 
> believe JKR has proven her ability to focus on contradictions and 
> still reveal a person for who he/she is.  

Carol again:
I guess we're talking circles around each other because I don't
understand what you're saying, either. I'm just saying that HBP was
Snape's book and we're not going to get much more on his past except a
clarification of what happened during the Prank and, I hope, during
the eavesdropping. We're not going to get inside his mind. As for
contradictions, JKR has been revealing Snape's contradictions (which I
specified earlier in this post) since Book 1. And she's also a
mistress of misdirection. So Harry will find out that he's been wrong
all along, not about Snape's snarky personality and personal dislike
of him, but about who and what he really is, IMO, a man of courage and
principle who did a terrible deed he regrets to prevent a much greater
evil., the victory of Voldemort which could have resulted from the
events on the tower if Snape hadn't taken matters into his own hands.

> Jen: I see Snape as part of the confluence of events, though!  I 
> didn't mean he was outside that and life was happening to him, he 
> took part in the UV, he wanted the DADA job (presumably).  And Snape 
> is weighted down with obligations he doesn't want, imo.  Returning
to Voldemort, carrying through with Dumbledore's plans for Harry and 
> having 'custody' of Draco for all intents and purposes since
Narcissa  has no influence over Voldemort.  It's one thing to be a
double-agent and appear to play both sides, it's quite another to be
forced out of that role and *have* to go to the enemy camp.  It's the
worst possible scenario for a double-agent. 

Carol:
I think it's all part of the job for him and that he had planned to go
into the enemy camp all along. Surely both he and DD knew that the
DADA curse would cause him to be exposed as a (seeming) DE. Whether he
really wanted the DADA course all along, I'm not sure. I do think he
knew he could teach it better than anyone else. DD knew it, too, and
would have given it to him long before, IMO, if it weren't for the
curse on the position. But I don't think that Snape's allegiance is
going to suffer any test now. He's been risking discovery all along,
sometimes in peril of his life. And he's still, in a way, a double
agent, only under deep, deep cover and in greater danger. The question
is, how can he communicate his real loyalties and what can he do to
undermine Voldemort. DD wanted him exactly where he is. Why?  
> 
> Carol:
> > But you don't need to hold your breath for Snape to show mercy. He
> > has already done so. Look again at the healing scene in the
> > Sectumsempra chapter. Snape is forgiving Draco for fighting the
> > Chosen One and trying to kill Dumbledore, and he is letting him 
> > continue his assignment, very much against Snape's will, IMO,
> > because Dumbledore believes in choices and second chances. 
> 
> Jen:  You mean Snape would have rather let Draco die and he himself
then die from the UV there than carry out Dumbledore's plan but 
instead did as Dumbledore would have wanted?  

Carol:
No, no, no! Of course not. I just think that saving Draco is about
more than saving both their necks or doing what dumbledore want. It's
what Snape himself wants, just as he wanted to protect Draco in the
first place and was willing to risk his own life by taking a UV to do
so. It's also an act of mercy. He would have saved Draco, anyway, even
if it weren't for the vow, assuming that he could get to him quickly
enough. He's saving and protecting Draco because he cares about him
and forgives him for his mission to murder Dumbledore and quite
possibly sees himself in Draco. Saving Draco isn't just keeping his
vow. It's a compassionate act of healing, one that shows a gentle,
almost motherly side of snape that we've never seen anywhere else.
It's letting Draco continue with his assignment that I think is
against Snape's will. (I've got to stop writing these complex
sentences! <g>)


I'm not seeing another 
> option if he didn't save Draco.  Not to belittle that he created a 
> healing means for the Sectumsempra, but once again that was his own 
> curse; The healing would not be necessary if he hadn't invented the 
> curse.  

Carol:
I agree. That's part of the irony of the book and the situation in the
chapter, along with Haarry's relationship to the HBP. And Snape, I'm
quite sure, is fully aware of the irony and the implications.
Nevertheless, healing Draco, who has gotten Snape and himself into
this mess, is an act of mercy. Snape is trying to help Draco, and not
in the way Draco thinks.

Jen:
Sort of like the Potters wouldn't have needed to be saved without
Voldemort knowing the prophecy and Harry and Draco wouldn't need to be
saved on the tower if Snape hadn't played a role in that scenario (not
placing the full burden on Snape there, just saying he played a role
in all these situations and seems to be continually making mistakes he
then has to play a role in correcting).

Carol:
Exactly. Redeemed!Snape or Repentant!Snape or whatever he is is trying
to undo his own mistakes (and to watch over and protect Draco as no
one watched over and protected him). And Snape's anguish over the
tower is intensified by all of this being the culmination of his
choices, including the UV, which he took in the first place to protect
Draco. I don't think any of this will make him change sides, but if it
weren't for Occlumency enabling him to divorce himself from his
emotions, I think he'd be on the brink of insanity now. He wanted to
undo his own mistake and save the Potters, but he failed. He wanted to
save Draco by taking the UV and ended up being forced to kill
Dumbledore himself thanks in part to that Vow. At least he had the
chance to save Draco from Sectumsempra--one mistake successfully
remedied! 

> Jen: I'm not seeing mercy here though I once did, Dumbledore bought 
> Harry's and Draco's life with his sacrifice.  Snape's entrusted with 
> them now and if Dumbledore means anything to Snape and he does 
> obviously as both of us see his deep pain and remorse, then Snape 
> will not defile his death by hurting Harry or undermining the very 
> plan he just sacrificed a life for.

Carol:
And yet Harry is taunting him and causing him emotional anguish. Snape
didn't have to save Harry from that Crucio. So I think there's no
question that he's capable of mercy.
> 
>Carol, again thinking that we're not all that far apart in our views
and wondering if she's ever going to get those Christmas presents to
the post office!