Broken potionvial WAS: Re: Bad Writing? (was: JKR and the boys)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 162998

SSSusan wrote previously:
> FWIW, I'm with you, Zanooda, in how I read this scene.  However, 
> having had this discussion/argument a couple of times before here, 
> I can step up and explain part of the assertion against it:  the 
> potion vial/phial's shattering takes place ever-so-slightly "off 
> screen."  
<snip>
> Again, like you, my assumption is that Snape dropped the vial 
> intentionally, to send all kinds of messages to Harry
.  However, 
> the wall you will run up against in this assertion is that it 
> cannot be proven as fact, since we're with Harry in his POV and he
> did not definitively  *see* Snape drop the vial.  Harry "knows" it
>  to be true, but Harry has been wrong about what he "knows" before.

Wynnleaf replied:
> The problem with this kind of incident is that, in my opinion, we 
> have to assume that what JKR "appears" to be telling us in the 
> text is in fact what occurred *unless* we can envision her coming 
> back at a later time and showing us that what we thought occurred 
> did not actually happen in the way we thought, or for the reasons 
> we thought.
<snip>
> If JKR was actually intending Harry to be wrong about his 
> assumption, then she was also attempting to deceive the reader at 
> the same time.  It is pointless to deceive the reader unless she 
> intends to fill us in on the truth later.  

SSSusan:
Wynnleaf, I think this is just the question to ask!  WHY would she 
put this in, in such a way as to leave it open, if she is unlikely 
to revisit the scene and give us the real scoop eventually?  In 
fact, IIRC, I have used that very unlikeliness myself as part of 
the  argument that what Harry "knew" in this scene must have been 
what actually happened.  Since it does seem highly unlikely that 
we'd ever have cause to revisit it, why would JKR want us to think 
it *wasn't* Snape?  (But see below.)


Potion-"The Wall"-cat added:
> "Oops!" One of my favorite things to discuss! Probably one that 
> will be even less important than "Is Harry's cousin, Mark Evans, 
> going to be a Muggle or a wizard?"
>
> I think Draco broke the vial, and Snape said "Oops" in support of 
> Draco....one of those sweet bonding moments between Mentor and 
> Protege. My main reason for thinking that it wasn't Snape, is that 
> it seemed different from his usual mistreatment of Harry.

Alla chimed in:
> But not Draco, surely he won't be that bold in front of whole 
> class?
>
> That was Snape twins helping out and under invisibility cloak too.
>
> Disclaimer:  Please refer to Potioncat for all further questions 
> as to Snape twins backstory. She is the one responsible for their 
> existence after all ;)
>
> Alla, running away and fast.


SSSusan again:
LOL!  Dare I say I'd actually *forgotten* about the Snape twins?  

Interesting thought, Potion-"The Wall"-cat (is that your WWF 
moniker, I wonder?):  that it was DRACO who dropped the vial and 
Snape was just adding his measure of support [as Ceridwen said, 
his "Whoops" was his petty vengeance, his glee that Harry 
had "gotten his," even if he hadn't caused it].  

It's definitely possible it was Draco.  One question which would 
still remain, though, is, "Why would JKR write it this way?  Why 
wouldn't she *show* us that scene of Draco being a jerk and Snape 
enjoying it?"

And I have another question.  Isn't it possible that this didn't 
seem to fit the type of mistreatment Snape usually dished out to 
Harry because Snape was SO enraged over the Occlumency incident?  
Maybe this was over the top because his rage was over the top?


Wynnleaf wrote:
> If Snape did not actually drop the vial, and JKR was deceiving 
> both Harry and the reader, then it would almost certainly be 
> because she wanted Harry to think something bad about Snape 
> that wasn't exactly true.

SSSusan:
Hey!  Maybe that's precisely it, Wynnleaf!  Maybe JKR was just 
adding ONE MORE THING to Harry's arsenal of Reasons Why I Loathe 
Snape.  Maybe it doesn't really matter whether it was Snape, Draco, 
Peeves, one of the Snape twins <w>, or Harry having failed to place 
the vial far enough from the edge.  Maybe what mattered to JKR was 
giving us yet another piece of Harry Perspective, another thing to 
build up his own case for hatred of Snape.  

Which gets me back to that other thread, heh, the one where we've 
been talking about the work Harry's likely going to have to do 
regarding Snape, if he's ever going to be able to trust a DDM!
Snape....


> Potioncat, waving to SSSusan, and happy to see her posting again.

Thanks, Potioncat.  It's hard to carve out the time for HPfGU 
regularly, but I sure do realize how much I've missed the place once 
I'm back posting!

Siriusly Snapey Susan, who still thinks Snape did it <g>