DD and Snape /Re: Regressed Harry

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 163164


> Alla:
> But no matter how hard I would try to hypnotize myself, nothing can
> convince me that Headmaster was powerless to stop Snape,
> unfortunately. So, yeah, in this instance in my book he looks
> unquestionably guilty of condoning abuse.
> 
> Pippin:
> Honestly, you make it sound like Snape is programmed to
> be kind and respectful to others, and all Dumbledore has to
> do is push the right buttons and the program will run. 

Alla:

No, all that Dumbledore has to do IMO is to tell Snape - think what 
you wish about James Potter and his son, but don't you dare treat 
him other than decently, otherwise you will, I don't know be fired 
ASAP. I have strong suspicion that Snape will understand perfectly 
that. I do not believe that he wants to leave Hogwarts, I think even 
if he DD!M, he really valued DD and Hogwarts walls protection and 
yeah, I do believe he is capable of making an effort and close his 
mouth, where Harry is concerned.

Pippin:
> What part of "some wounds are too deep for the healing"
> is hard to understand?

Alla:

The part where it is somehow relevant to Dumbledore being able to 
force Snape to treat Harry more or less decently. If you believe 
that Snape wounds somehow give him a pass to do what he does, well, 
I do not. If Dumbledore also believes so, well, I am trying to pick 
a word, which LL has not used yet :) Let's just say then I believe 
Dumledore's priorities are screwed in a big way.


Pippin:
> Anyway, Rowling has already said that Dumbledore thinks that
> teachers like Snape are a lesson in life. Evidently he believes
> it would be worse to let the children  pretend that people like 
> Snape don't exist or can always be avoided than to let them 
> be exposed to sneers and taunts. 

Alla:

Yeah, you see I believe that there is plenty of time for children to 
be exposed to such people outside of school. Dumbledore and me 
probably differ here. I do think though that the lesson for Harry to 
not be like Snape ever may somehow play out.


Pippin:
>  Neville will never love Snape's classes, but years 
> and years of them never put him in the state he was in after
> just one session with Fake!Moody.

Alla:

So, Fake!Moody abuses worse, much worse and that does not make Snape 
an abuser why? What Catlady said - minus one does not become 
positive number, even though minus one millions is so much more 
negative. Neville seemed pretty distressed to me when he came back 
with frog gut or as we now know *toad gut* under his fingernails.

And that was repeated many times, but having the teacher as your 
boggart seems rather strong personification of the child's distress.

And since we do not have any indication that Neville's boggart 
changed, I am assuming that JKR wants me to think that it is still 
Snape.

 
Pippin:
> Of course Harry thinks the worst of Snape -- just as Snape
> always thinks the worst of him. That's how prejudice works.

Alla:

Thinking the worst of the child before you got to know him - 
**that** is prejudice indeed IMO, thinking the worst of your abuser 
**after** you interacted with him is the only possible, realistic 
way of thinking IMO. What Harry thinks of Snape is triggered by what 
Snape did to Harry, so I do not see how it can be called prejudice.


Pippin:
> But IMO, the situation can be resolved in one of two ways.
> Either  Harry will be vindicated in his current belief that
> he was right to think the worst of Snape from the beginning,
> or DH will see him realize that his prejudiced mind has not
> only refused to give Snape the benefit of the doubt, it has
> on many occasions refused even to acknowledge that room
> for doubt existed.
>

Alla:

We shall see of course. I am going with Harry was right to think the 
worst of Snape from the beginning, but will forgive him regardless. 
And one day I maybe understand why exactly Harry was supposed to 
give Snape the benefit of the doubt after all that Snape did to him.

I mean, even after Snape saves his life in PS/SS dear Albus steps in 
and pretty much tells the kid that it was only because Snape felt 
indebted to James and wanted to hate James' memory in piece.


> Lilygale here:
> 
> I disagree that Harry regressed between OotP and HBP.  In OotP 
Harry
> was definitely a rebellious and independent teenager, and acted 
both
> bravely and somewhat foolishly, as teenagers tend to do.   I
> recognize that  while other times Harry was a rage-driven teenager.
> His rage resulted from  IMO, post-traumatic stress disorder 
combined
> with a year of stress that most adults would have difficulty in
> handling.
> 
> Harry's rage was *directed* at Dumbledore much of the time, but it
> did not always emanate from Dumbledore.  Yes, being ignored by his
> mentor fueled some of Harry's anger, but I read Harry's reactions 
to
> being ignored by Dumbledore more as hurt than rage.  CAPSLOCK Harry
> seemed to derive from other sources, e.g. LV's emotions bleeding
> over into Harry's, the events at the end of GoF that left Harry
> suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder most of the year,
> ongoing abuse by Umbrage, all on top of Harry's 15 year old 
hormones.
> However, I see no regression in HBP.  Harry continues to act
> independently, but in a more mature and conbtrolled manner.  He 
acts
> logically and with purpose. <SNIP>

Alla:

Heee, I was typing that post yesterday while being a little 
feverish, seriously, so I may not expressed myself clearly. I am not 
sure if I believe myself that Harry regressed, as you said in the 
part I snipped Harry certainly exhibits independent thinking. That 
was my friend's wording.

But I do find it to not be very believable that Harry's rage or hurt 
or temper dissappeared completely in HBP, no matter what triggered 
it, you know?

I mean, if his hurt was from Dumbledore's reactions, does it mean 
that after him smashing DD possessions in OOP, he has no problems 
with DD whatsoever anymore?

It is like OOP never happened, sort of.

I suppose if we were to accept that CAPSLOCK Harry resulted from 
Voldemort in his head **only**  and it is not Harry's natural state 
of mind, like naturally he is of sweet disposition, then I can find 
it believable, I guess.

But I thought that hormones also played a part in it and post 
traumatic stress disorder, as you said, so I just thought that it 
would be nice if once during HBP Harry would scream at somebody.

I mean, I found the scene where Harry tries to make himself calm 
down in DD's office at the end of HBP to be very well done - as in 
Harry's character development, but it would have been nice to see 
something in between.


 > Lilygale, who thanks Alla for dependably interesting and well-
argued
> posts.  You always get me thinking :-)
>


Alla:

Blushes, same here. Very nice post.