ESEDDM!Snape

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 147547

Alla:
> > Absolutely. I have absolutely no problem buying this type of 
> > Snape. You see, despite me having very serious reservations of 
> > calling the man who killed Dumbledore "loyal to Dumbledore", I 
> > can see all those clues discussed multiple times actually turning 
> > to be clues in support of DD!M Snape.
 
Lupinlore: 
> Particularly if being "loyal to Dumbledore" involves DD asking 
> Snape to commit murder -- or at least killing.  This does seem to 
> clash with the emphasis on how murder tears the soul.  Of course, 
> this might help explain part of Snape's constant bitterness.  He 
> feels himself to be second in DD's affections to Harry.  If DD 
> indeed asked Snape to kill him, knowing what the consequences to 
> Snape would be in terms of soul-ripping or whatever, Snape's anger 
> takes on a new twist.  That is, he sees Dumbledore as being 
> perfectly willing to sacrifice him, Severus, to bring about the 
> salvation of Harry Potter.  Once again, as with the case of the 
> prank and PoA, Dumbledore shows, in Snape's view, that he holds 
> Snape's life and well-being in little regard, compared with that of 
> first James and now Harry.  
> 
> To use a chess analogy, Severus has become used to being the most 
> powerful piece on Dumbledore's board.  But even though he is Queen 
> (not making any sexual references at all, here), Harry is 
> Dumbledore's King in both strategy and affection.


SSSusan: 
YES YES YES!  In these comments, I agree with you wholeheartedly!!  
I understand why many listees can't reconcile DD asking Snape to kill 
him with the DD they feel they know, knowing that such a request 
would (or might, if sacrificial killing is different than cold-
blooded murder) tear Snape's soul.  But I believe that DD *did* make 
this HUGE request of Snape, KNOWING that it was a tremendously awful 
thing to ask of him.  

And not only is it an awful thing to ask of Snape -- possibly tearing 
his soul, causing the Order members to disbelieve his loyalty, asking 
him to return to behaviors he perhaps engaged in as a DE and wanted 
to leave wholly behind -- but, as you say, in the process it would 
also reinforce, to Snape, that HARRY MATTERS MORE to DD. 

All of these factors could easily lead to a look of revulsion and 
hatred on Snape's face, no?  Snape would do it, because DD wanted him 
to and because it's for the good of many things in the long run, but 
he could still be royally ticked that he "has" to and that DD 
apparently cares more about Harry Potter than him.


Alla: 
> > Now, I can even buy Snape being a bastard in general, but having 
> > SOME nobility of the character and realising that Voldemort is 
> > evil....  

Lupinlore:
> Is this not where Gray!Snape (my own favorite version) emerges?  A 
> Snape who is complex and whose evil side is quite genuine and 
> really evil, but who for any number of reasons is loyal to 
> Dumbledore? <snip>  So we have a Snape who really is evil when he 
> does evil things, but who is loyal enough to Dumbledore to do what 
> DD asks.  This is a version of Snape who, perhaps in contrast to 
> the version I set out above, is not so much destroyed from without 
> as destroyed from within.  His dark tendencies subborn him at 
> critical moments, such as during Occlumency or taking the UV, 
> leading him down paths from which his only redemption can come at 
> fearful cost and probably death.

Alla:
> > What I am NOT buying ever and this is of course JMO is "Saint 
> > Severus". You know, the one who after leaving DE did not do 
> > ANYTHING really bad, and even while he was being DE, he did not 
> > do anything REALLY bad....


SSSusan:
Again, yes!  These comments capture many of my thoughts & beliefs 
exactly.  It also points out, I think, that sometimes we're arguing 
semantics, not actually the different CONTENT we may be *assuming* 
about people's arguments here.  

By way of explanation, what Lupinlore calls Grey!Snape, I call DDM!
Snape.  It's just that *my* version of DDM!Snape is no saint and 
no "Never was a TRUE Death Eater" and no "But he's TOTALLY good 
underneath it all."  In assigning him a label, I focus on where the 
*loyalty* lies, hence the DDM!Snape label; but loyalty to DD doesn't 
= "overall goodness," so he's NO Saint Snape.


Siriusly Snapey Susan, thinking perhaps there's more common ground 
between DDM!Snape and Grey!Snape than many believe.