Role of ESE in Hero's Quest (was:Re: Was HPB's ending BANG-y?...)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 147612

> >>Nora: 
> <snip>
> I see the *format* of book 7 going into Super Happy Quest Mode.  I 
> do not consider this quite the same thing as a 'Hero's Journey' 
> paradigm, for one thing.  (And for another, I think Joseph        
> Campbell is generally bunk, but that's another thread.)

Betsy Hp:
That's what I mean about a too specific definition.  Campbell 
*wrote* about the Hero's Journey.  He didn't invent it.  And I don't 
know that he's the definitive source of all things quest-ie.  
Actually, I think there's too strong a tendency to see the fantasy 
genre as the be all end all of the herioc quest.  And that's a 
mistake on two levels.  First, the fantasy genre ain't that old, 
whereas the heroic quest is as old as story-telling.  And second, 
JKR has stated many, many times, that she's not at all interested in 
the fantasy genre.  So I doubt she's really going for a fantasy 
story with her series.

> >>Nora: 
> Format means that Harry and his Trusty Sidekicks leave the        
> comforting halls of Hogwarts and go out on a search for a number   
> of objects, the Horsepuckies...err, Horcruxes. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes, Harry is going pro-active.  Instead of waiting for the action 
to come to him (to Hogwarts) he's going after the action.  JKR has 
given us the McGuffins that are the horcruxes, but I suspect that 
they will be of secondary importance.  I also suspect that HBP is 
not the last we'll see of Hogwarts.

But I do see what you mean about the structure of the last book 
being different.  JKR seems to be taking us well out of the school-
days tale.  In many ways, however, she did that with GoF.  With 
Cedric's death, everything changed.  Suddenly house points and 
quidditch cups became rather meaningless. 

> >>Nora:
> JKR has told us that yes, Harry now gets to find and destroy these 
> objects.  Then, all objects obtained, Harry is unable to finally   
> unlock the last dungeon and progress to fighting the final boss of 
> the game, after facing some lesser mini-bosses.  Some ridiculous   
> yet foreshadowed special trick may be necessary to be able to     
> damage the boss.  [Err, you know what I mean.  Legacy of a wasted 
> youth there.  Sorry.]
> This is a major change in structure from the previous six books, 
> which have centered around the regularity of the school year.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Right, but the structure isn't the entire point of the tale, is it?  
I mean, it's not really a video game where the reader is most 
interested in seeing Harry use his massive wizards skills to go head 
to head against Voldemort.  It never has been.  And Dumbledore 
rather underlined that fact in HBP by *not* improving Harry's wizard 
skills.  He didn't teach Harry anything about magic at all.

I doubt JKR is going to change that all for book 7.  Instead, as 
he's had to do in all the other books, Harry will need to learn 
something about himself, face an unpleasant truth (i.e. you'd have 
done well in Slytherin) and hopefully, learn some sort of basic 
truth that Voldemort has failed to grasp.

I tend to agree with Sydney, [see here: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/147406 ] that 
book 7 will be more about Harry finally seeing the worth in those he 
pre-judged to be unworthy (hopefully I've not mis-spoken Sydney's 
point!).  There's a delicious hint that Zach Smith may be a source 
for one of the horcruxes, and that could be a start.  Learning a new 
side to Regulus Black could be another.  And then, of course, 
there's Draco and Snape.

So I think it's going to be more about personal relationships and 
Harry understanding himself and therefore others rather than a bunch 
of battles.

> >>Nora:
> Above all, the heroic quest is "Find those things that you're      
> looking for".

Betsy Hp:
Agreed. (Though it's generally "thing" rather than a plural - 
probably for clarity's sake.)

> >>Nora:
> This often involves running confrontations with some kind of 
> villain, but it's more about progressing along and racking up     
> points per magical object needed and obtained.

Betsy Hp:
Well, no.  It rarely means that.  The heroic quest is not soley a 
fantasy thing.  Marlow didn't run into any magical objects in the 
Congo (unless Kurtz counts <eg>).  The old man didn't confront any 
villains while at sea.  Gosh, the Harry Potter series doesn't 
involve any "obtaining of magical objects" or points being racked 
up.  Mostly, Harry's success has been measured in not being dead.  
Which is why I'm reluctant to think JKR is going to collapse the 
interesting story she's been telling into a mere scavenger hunt.  
The hunt will be the structure, but not the point. 

> >>Nora:
> It's the breaking of the stationary format which makes me         
> reluctant to really think of the previous books as a 'journey'    
> except in the most metaphorical of terms.  Right now, I'm thinking 
> mechanics.

Betsy Hp:
Hmm, I see what you're saying, but the thing is, the hero's journey 
or heroic quest *is* a metaphorical thing.  There doesn't always 
have to be literal travel involved.  And, I do wonder how much 
actual traveling Harry will need to do.  It wouldn't surprise me if 
Voldemort stuck his remaining horcruxes in and around Hogwarts.  
(Dumbledore does tell us that Voldemort is remarkably attached to 
the school.  Not unlike Harry.)

However, even if Harry does need to strike out to parts unknown to 
collect the bits and pieces of Voldemort's soul, it's the 
metaphorical journey that will be the most interesting, I believe.  
Because that's what JKR has always been more interested in.

> >>Nora:
> And there always have to be difficulties, if not outright 
> antagonists, on a heroic quest for the magic thingies.  No tension 
> makes it too easy, and too easy makes for a boring novel.  PACMAN, 
> only for situations instead of characters. :)

Betsy Hp:
Yes, the hero must have something to strive against, even if it's 
just a massive fish. <g>  And JKR has given Harry Voldemort.  But 
she hasn't given Harry any sort of magic thing as the end of his 
quest.  Unless we're counting life as something magical.  Which I 
guess we could.  

> -Nora recommends some B-grade fantasy series with five books in    
> them each (cough cough) for anyone who wants to see a fairly       
> classic heroic quest/chase model in action

Betsy Hp:
I'd recommend Joseph Conrad's "The Heart of Darkness", or 
Hemmingway's "The Old Man and The Sea" as good heroic quest tales.  
Both are short reads, and neither could be classified as B-grade. <g>

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > And, every single time, the actual villain is Voldemort.
> > <snip>

> >>Geoff:
> There is one deviation from your suggested line and that is in
> Prisoner of Azkaban. Voldemort is not the actual villain - he     
> doesn't appear of course. I suppose the ESE guy here is Peter     
> Pettigrew but he's not working for Voldemort in this particular    
> instance so your villain "family tree" is missing a branch.        
> Perhaps the one you're perched on? :-)

Betsy Hp:
Okay, Geoff, time to watch me scramble. <g>  While Voldemort isn't 
actively involved in PoA, what Harry is looking for is who betrayed 
his parents to their deaths *at Voldemort's hands*.  He's looking 
for Voldemort's servant.  Without Voldemort Peter would have had no 
one to serve.  IOW, Voldemort activates Peter's villainy.  So 
Voldemort's shadow hangs quite heavily over PoA.  So heavy, in fact, 
that Peter returns to him, rather than say, catching a boat to New 
Zeland.

Betsy Hp, still clinging... she thinks.