Role of ESE in Hero's Quest / McGuffins & Horcruxes / House Unity

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 147809

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quick_silver71"
<quick_silver71 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" 
> <horridporrid03@> wrote:
> > Betsy Hp:
> > ...edited...
> > I'm not expecting some sort of Hogwarts utopia though. Just an 
> > ability for Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff, Slytherin and Gryffindor
> > to  work together.  Which is something I expect Harry will need
> > to make happen in order to hunt down the remaining horcruxes.

> quick_silver:
> 
> ... I've always taken a slightly different view of the house 
> system and how it effects characters (Harry mainly) and what's
> its future is. To me it seems that as Harry ages he is gradually
> expanding his horizons and relationships with people outside of
> his house and outside of his typical views. So part of Harry's 
> coming of age is that he realizes he's outgrown the house system
> ...
>  

bboyminn:

Once again, an excellent point made by Quick_Silver, and one that I
hadn't thought of. Indeed I think you are right, literally 'growing
up' in the wizard world mean getting over or at least getting past the
 House system. 

When I say 'growing up', I don't mean getting chronologically older or
becoming 'of age'; I mean emotionally growning up. In a sense, House
desigantions have no significants beyond school, yet some immature
people hold on to petty schoolboy grudges for a life time. More
emotionally mature people eventually realize that a person's House
designation doesn't define them; it is their general good character
and action in everyday life that define who they truly are. 

So, I very much like this aspect of Harry's 'coming of age'; he simply
grows beyond petty House designations.

Now on the subject of Houses from a more general perspective. People
will always divide themselves. They will always, in a sense, create
and foster an 'us vs them' social system. Go into any high school that
does not have a House System, and you will find the student ridgedly
divided into Jocks, Nerds, Freaks, Stoners, and the 'Artsy' crowd. All
of whom are contantly waging overt or covert 'war' against each other.
Of course, just like Hogwarts, there are many students that can pass
in more than one group.

Even when I was in college, students were assigned to 'residence
halls' which in reality were nothing more than a place to sleep. Yet,
each residence hall was absolutely convinced that they had the coolest
people and threw the best parties.

My point is that even without genuine houses, students will create
artificial house in which to seek friendship and validation.

So, Houses are never going away. If nothing else, Hogwarts student
will define themselves by the 'residence hall' in which the live.

Next, Uniting the Houses, does not mean 'uniting' to perfection. It
doesn't mean that the House will join together down the the absolute
last person. But if some Gryffindors, join with some Hufflepuffs, who
join with some Ravelclaws, who all mutually join with some Slytherins,
the resulting unit will be much stronger than the remaining factions.
It is in this sense that the Houses will unite.

I want to urge everyone to remember that we have not seen all
Slytherins, in fact we have only seen a small fraction of them. We
have no reason to believe the unseens Slytherins are anything other
than normal ambitious kids trying to make their way through school and
through life. JKR said as much herself. So, don't define all
Slytherins by the Malfoys or Voldemort.

> quick_silver:
> 
> I'm going to disagree with the Horcruxs noting giving Harry 
> anything
 they give him (and whoever comes along with him) 
> experience fighting the dark forces. And they can take things
> away from Harry too
 Dumbledore lost his life because of what 
> happened in the cave (either directly or indirectly).  
>  

bboyminn:

I love this whole discussion of McGuffins, Plot Devices, Plot Coupon,
Plot Vouchers, and assorted other story generating tools. In a sense,
a McGuffin is simply the reason or motivating force for the characters
to interact. In "North by Northwest" Gary Grant is mistaken for a spy
and "BOOM" you have a movie.

In some ways, the new Defense Against Dark Arts teacher is a McGuffin
simply because the bulk of each book is related to Harry interacting
with the new teacher. Yet in the end, that teacher is not really the
key to the story; they are nothing more than the reason for the plot
to move forward until we can reach the true reason for the story.

Plot Vouchers are, in a sense, the author's and Hero's 'get out of
jail free' card. In volume one of 'Any Story' the hero is given a
powerful magic 'Amulet of Plot Resolution' or a 'Staff of Infinute
Power' that the Hero can call on whenever the author runs out of plot
solutions. 

We could say that the Weasley Flying Car is a Plot Voucher. It is
something introduced at the begining of the story in a seemingly
insignificant way, lost, then returns at the most critical moment to
save the day. While in the hands of a hackneyed writer that could have
been laughable, in JKR's hands I think it was masterfully handled. The
Car does not have infinite power, nor does it shield against all evil.
It is a quirky plot device that in a sense takes on its own
personality, and in the end, doesn't save the day by some supreme
intervention of God or the Author, but simply intervines within the
normal boundaries of a normal mildly magical objects. I hate hackneyed
all powerful 'get out of jail free' cards, but I loved that car.

Another example is Fawkes. Fawkes is an all-powerful magical device
that JKR can pull out whenever she has written herself into corner and
needs to save the plot. Yet, I think she has used Fawkes in a unique
and imaginitive way. While Fawkes is very powerful, he is not the
'Universal Amulet Against All Magic'. Fawkes saves the day with
imagination and more importantly with limitations. 

In the Chamber of Secrets, Fawkes doesn't swoop in and slay the
Basilisk; Fawkes merely blinds him. Then what tools does Fawkes bring
- the Sorting Hat - which seems to have no useful purpose. Yet, an
unlikely and unpredicatable sword appears out of the hat. Still, a
sword against a Basilisk, I'd much rather have the 'Staff of Infinite
Power and Plot Resolution' than a mere sword against a 60 foot Snake
as thick as an oak tree. Yet, in the end, through a masterful sequence
of events, the mere sword does prove to be enough.

A hackneyed writer simply pulls out his Plot Voucher, the villian of
the moment is vanguished and the story goes on. JKR, who is far more
imaginitive than hackneyed, brings Fawkes to the rescue and we breath
a sigh of relief, only to feel of lungs lock up again when we realize
that all Fawkes has brought is a song and a hat. Then Fawkes attacks
the Basilisk, and we breath a sigh of relief again, but then the
Basilisk is only blinded and Harry is still in danger; we tense. Harry
get the Hat - sigh, but what good is a hat -tense. The Hat produces a
weapon - sigh, but what good is a sword against a Basilik - tense.
That's figuratively like fighting a bull elephant with a pocket knife.
But Harry manages to use the Sword to slay the Snake - sigh; but then
the fang pierces his arm - tense. Then all is lost, Harry is wounded
and poisoned, Voldmort is victorious - double tense, but then Fawkes
mourns and laments Harry's demise - sigh (but for a different reason).
Then, oddly, Harry does not meet his demise, he actually feels better
- sigh (for the original reason). Then in a moment of inspiration,
Harry stabs the book with the fang - sigh of relieve followed by a cheer. 

OK, that is one complicated 'Plot Voucher'. 


> quick_silver:
> 
> Even if Draco comes with that attitude and knowledge that
> wouldn't take away that Harry has seen Draco at his most 
> conflicted and making the hardest choices of his life. I 
> didn't mean that Draco would be broken but that Harry will 
> have some insight into him
 insight that Draco doesn't really
> have into Harry. So even if Draco comes with attitude Harry 
> will have seen what lies beneath. 
> 
> Quick_Silver
>

bboyminn:

I've always said that Draco will alway be Draco regardless of whether
he fights for the good side or the bad; smarmy, sarcastic, and
self-serving. He and Harry, may cooperate but they will never be
friends. Draco's mistakes may at some point be forgiven, but I don't
think they will ever be forgotten; at least not by Harry. Harry will
always know that Draco is s self-serving coward, who in the end will
do what is best for Draco. 

Certainly, Draco is now finally and clearly aware that being a Death
Eater is NOT and never was in his best interests. He will do what he
has to do while amoung the Death Eaters, but I think Draco definitely
wants out. Better to live and grow rich in a world filled with
mudbloods than die young pursuing a false and impractical Pureblood
ideology. (I'll avoid for the moment expressing my ideas of how
hopelessly disfunction the wizard world will become if Voldemort wins.)

This is one aspect of the story that I am immensely curious about. How
will Draco and Harry resolve things? I'm certain they will. JKR seems
 to have setup Draco's redemption, or at least his cooperation with
the good guys, but to what ultimate end, I can't say. 

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn