[HPforGrownups] Re: Teaching Styles LONG

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 147850

On 9 Feb 2006 at 9:22, finwitch wrote:
> Finwitch:
> 
> Well, we must also consider the subject. Trelawney is teaching a
> subject that *requires* a certain set of mind, which Hermione does not
> have. While her mindset - logic, theory, abstract - is excellent for
> theoretical achievement and applying a theory, also provide excellent
> grades for many subjects, her set of mind does not help her to beat
> her boggart. Harry's mindset OTOH - while not making him the model
> student - is the sort that helps him defeat not just a boggart, but a
> dementor and deal with TimeTravel in a deep, profound understanding
> which Hermione did not achieve with a year of practice.

Shaun: 

I really do not see this at all.

Trelawney is, in terms of her teaching, a fraud. Yes, she is a 
genuine seer as evidenced by her very occasional prophecies, but the 
subject she teaches is an almost total nonsense. 

But even if she wasn't a fraud, one of her first statements about 
Divination is the following:

"'Many witches and wizards, talented though they are in the area
of loud bangs and smells and sudden disappearings, are yet unable to
penetrate the veiled mysteries of the future,' Professor Trelawney
went on, her enormous, gleaming eyes moving from face to nervous
face. 'It is a Gift granted to few. You, boy,' she said suddenly to
Neville, who almost toppled off his pouf. 'Is your grandmother 
well?'"

So, if Trelawney is genuine (and as a teacher, I do not believe she 
is, but just for the sake of argument), one of the first thing she 
tells us about her subject is that it is something few of her 
students will be able to master.

So, why does she single Hermione out in that case? If this is truly a 
gift granted to few, and Trelawney is teaching it to those few, she 
must be used to students who are never going to be able to do it. But 
the only person we see her single out publically for comment on this 
is Hermione.

Trelawney's classes are presented throughout the book as fraudulent. 
Harry and Ron do well in them by simply making things up. If she has 
any talent to identify students who won't be able to do her subject, 
she should certainly be capable of picking up on students who are 
constantly cheating and playing her for a fool. She doesn't, because 
she can't. Except for very brief flashes of (admittedly incredibly 
impressive) talent, she doesn't have any ability.

> Finwitch:
> 
> Note: Harry came to *understand* TimeTravel without theory trough ONE
> practice. Hermione had theory and experience of being in 3 places at
> once for a year, and yet she did not gain understanding. Seeing to the
> future (Divination) is that kind of TimeTravel. It's apparent Hermione
> can't deal with it (she realised it by the end of her third year).
> Trelawney saw that in her - she can't deal different times - she can't
> deal with Divination - and Trelawney told her so.

Shaun:

Again I disagree.

I don't believe Harry understands time travel any better than 
Hermione does, although I would be interested to read why you believe 
she does.

During the rescue of Buckbeak and Sirius, I see plenty of evidence 
that Hermione knows exactly how what they are doing works:

"'Hermione,' said Harry suddenly, 'what if we - we just run in
there and grab Pettigrew -'

'No!' said Hermione in a terrified whisper. 'Don't you understand? 
We're breaking one of the most important wizarding laws! Nobody's 
supposed to change time, nobody! You heard Dumbledore, if we're seen -
'

 'We'd only be seen by ourselves and Hagrid!'

'Harry, what do you think you'd do if you saw yourself bursting
into Hagrid's house?' said Hermione.

'I'd - I'd think I'd gone mad,' said Harry, 'or I'd think
there was some Dark Magic going on -'

'Exactly! You wouldn't understand, you might even attack
yourself! Don't you see? Professor McGonagall told me what awful
things have happened when wizards have meddled with time.... Loads
of them ended up killing their past or future selves by mistake!'

'Okay!' said Harry. 'It was just an idea, I just thought -'"

*****

This is a clear example of Hermione knowing more about what is going 
on than Harry.

All through the passage, it is Hermione who is able to keep track of 
the two separate timelines:

*****

"'Shh! Listen! Someone's coming! I think - I think it might be
us! Hermione had her ear pressed against the cupboard door.

'Footsteps across the hall... yes, I think it's us going down to 
Hagrid's!'  

'Are you telling me,' Harry whispered, 'that we're here in this 
cupboard and we're out there too?'  

'Yes,' said Hermione, her ear still glued to the cupboard door. 'I'm 
sure it's us. It doesn't sound like more than three people... and 
we're walking slowly because we're under the Invisibility Cloak -'"  

*****

"'Okay, but we'll go around by the greenhouses!' said Hermione 
breathlessly. 'We need to keep out of sight of Hagrid's front door, 
or we'll see us! We must be nearly at Hagrid's by now!'  

Still working out what she meant, Harry set off at a sprint,
Hermione behind him."

*****

"They crept through the trees until they saw the nervous
hippogriff, tethered to the fence around Hagrid's pumpkin patch.

'Now?' Harry whispered.

'No!' said Hermione. 'If we steal him now, those Committee people 
will think Hagrid set him free! We've got to wait until they've seen 
he's tied outside!'  

*****

"'Now what?' whispered Harry, looking around.

'We'll have to hide in here,' said Hermione, who looked very
shaken. 'We need to wait until they've gone back to the castle. Then
we wait until it's safe to fly Buckbeak up to Sirius's window. He
won't be there for another couple of hours.... Oh, this is going
to be difficult....'"

*****

"'If he'd only grabbed the cloak,' said Harry. 'It's just lying
there...'

He turned to Hermione.

'If I just dashed out now and grabbed it, Snape'd never be able
to get it and -'

'Harry, we mustn't be seen!'

'How can you stand this?' he asked Hermione fiercely. 'Just
standing here and watching it happen?' He hesitated. 'I'm going to
grab the cloak!'

'Harry, no!'

Hermione seized the back of Harry's robes not a moment too soon. just 
then, they heard a burst of song. It was Hagrid, making his way up to 
the castle, singing at the top of his voice, and weaving slightly as 
he walked. A large bottle was swinging from his hands.  

'See?' Hermione whispered. 'See what would have happened? We've
got to keep out of sight! No, Buckbeak!'"

*****

I really do find the assertion that Harry came to understand time 
travel while Hermione didn't perplexing. I think the evidence is very 
clear all through that passage that Hermione has, by far, the better 
understanding of what is going on - hardly surprising considering she 
has had much more time to deal with this.

The only time Harry comes to a realisation that Hermione doesn't in 
that passage is when he comes to the realisation - at virtually the 
last second only while he is standing at the point that he saw 
himself. That's a relatively profound realisation I suppose - but 
he's right on the scene.

Hermione understands time travel perfectly well. If she didn't Harry 
would have blown the entire operation more than once.

And I don't think the reason that Hermione gives up the Time Turner 
has anything to do with not being able to understand time. I think it 
has everything to do with how busy she was. The text is not 
absolutely clear on this, but it does seem to me the simplest 
explanation. Especially seeing we have several indications in the 
text that her workload was making her tired:

"Oh, well - you know - working hard," said Hermione. Close-up,
Harry saw that she looked almost as tired as Lupin."

> Finwitch:
>
> Everyone can't deal with unpleasant truth (like Fudge) - or
> predestination that will happen no matter what (Hermione) - but that's
> what Divination is all about. Wasn't it better for Hermione to learn
> that early on and having the 'it's nonsense'-defence than learn how
> everyone else can do something while she can't? And Trelawney didn't
> call Hermione stupid - she said her mind is 'mundane'. Snape calls ALL
> students potential 'dunderheads', and presumes they don't appreciate
> the subject.

Shaun:

As I have mentioned earlier, if we can rely on Trelawney's statements 
(and I don't think we can):

"'Many witches and wizards, talented though they are in the area
of loud bangs and smells and sudden disappearings, are yet unable to
penetrate the veiled mysteries of the future,' Professor Trelawney
went on, her enormous, gleaming eyes moving from face to nervous
face. 'It is a Gift granted to few."

then it's simply not true that Hermione is being told that she can't 
do something everyone else can do. If Trelawney's 
statement is to be trusted, only a few people can do Divination and 
there was *no* reason for her to single Hermione out.

I believe the reason Trelawney singles Hermione out is very simple. 
She does so because Hermione is smart enough to see 
through her, and not to go along with her fraud.

Trelawney's statement about Hermione lacking an aura comes 
immediately after Hermione has said that she can't see the Grim 
in Harry's teacup - the blob that has already been described by Ron 
as looking like a hippo or a sheep, but certainly not 
like a dog.

Trelawneys response is to look at her with 'dislike' according to the 
text, and then announce there's a problem with her aura.

As for the statement about her mind being mundane, when that 
statement is made, Trelawney is described as being unmistakeably 
angry - and why. Because Professor Trelawney is once again about to 
claim that the Grim has appeared in Harry's future again.

This is not a matter of a teacher breaking an unpleasant truth to a 
student. This is a matter of a teacher deliberately insulting a 
student for daring to challenge her.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia