Teaching Styles

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 147881

> >>Irene Milkin:
> > Someone else was very sarcastic in this thread about the constantly
> > moving goal posts. I thought it was too much at the time, but now I
> > start to see the point.

> >>Magpie:
> Honestly, I don't think it was sarcasm.  It was a perfectly accurate 
> desciption of the way the argument looked to be going and was 
> demonstrated perfectly with the response.  I believe it's a common 
> thing in debate--I think it's called an "unfalsified premise?"  The 
> idea is that you have a premise that can never be falsified--what 
> Betsy described as "always raising the bar higher." 

Betsy Hp:
Magpie is right.  I wasn't being sarcastic at all.  And I wasn't even 
trying to be rude.  It's just how these arguments have always gone 
down.

> >>Alla:
> Are you SURE Betsy that Umbridge is not a suck up to Snape?

Betsy Hp:
Yes.  Because JKR wrote Umbridge as hostile to Snape.  Even Harry 
picked up on the hostility.  So I'd say this isn't opinion, it's 
canon.  I mean, sure there's a *logic* to Umbridge sucking up to 
Snape, just as there's a logic to Fake!Moody sucking up to Draco 
Malfoy.  But it doesn't mean the charater will follow the logical 
route.  And JKR makes it very clear that Umbridge and Snape do not get 
along.

> >>Alla:
> Could you point me to interview where JKR said that Hermione is a
> chosen judge of good vs bad teaching?

Betsy Hp:
No.  This is something you pick up from reading the books.  Hermione 
is very interested in her education and so, unless she's got a crush, 
she will not tolerate an incompetent teacher.   

> >>Alla:
> You should really take this grievance with JKR. :-) Because she was
> the one who could not decide whether Harry's year contains 600 (
> almost sure of the number) or 40( I think) students.

Betsy Hp:
Can you point me to the canon that supports the theory that Harry's 
class has 600 students?  That would be 150 students per house (in 
*only* Harry's class).  Which means Snape and Sprout teach 300 
students in Harry's classes with them.  Which also means there are 142 
Gryffindors in Harry's year that he never mentions.  Unless we're 
going with, what, 8 Gryffindors, 10 Slytherins, 291 Ravenclaws and 291 
Hufflepuffs? Which would mean that while Snape and Sprout had a class 
of about 20 when Harry was learning from them, their other classes had 
582 students.  That's a lot of mandrakes! 

I'd love for you to point out some canon support for those numbers, 
Alla.  But I'll understand if you don't want to. <g>

> >>Alla:
> You have some proof that Slytherins who graduated while Snape was a
> teacher had not become DE?

Betsy Hp:
I'd say the burden of proof is on your side actually.  Show me that 
under Snape's leadership, Slytherins have been flocking to Voldemort.  
I will say that the recruitment numbers were probably low all over 
while Voldemort was Vapor!Mort.  And none of the Death Eaters we've 
met so far have been young enough to have been recruited, straight 
from Hogwarts in the last two years.  And of Harry's class, only Draco 
has actively worked for Voldemort (though we don't know if he's an 
actual Death Eater) and he didn't relish the work.  (The glory, yes, 
but not the work.)  So that's *one* student out of however many.  But 
you're welcome to try and prove there's been more. <g>

> >>Alla:
> So, I take it you agree with me that older Gryffindors do not think
> Snape is a good teacher either?

Betsy Hp:
No.  You can take it that I agree that Gryffindors, for the most part, 
are bigoted against Slytherins in general.  Which is why I considered 
your question a clever trap.  (Would a Hatfield praise a McCoy?)

This next bit is a perfect example of raising the bar, so I'll play 
the conversation out in full:

> >>Alla:
> Really, IMO all that Rowling needed to do if she wanted to show
> that Snape is a good teacher for anybody except Slytherins is to
> let ANY older Gryffindor make a passing remark, about his class
> being good, challenging, interesting.
> <snip>

> >>Betsy Hp:
> A neat little trap, this, Alla.  Because we do know that Snape
> doesn't like Gryffindors, and we also know that Gryffindors don't
> like Slytherins.
> However, if we accept that Hufflepuffs are not total duffers, the
> fact that Ernie Macmillan says of Snape's first DADA class, "Good
> lesson, I thought," (HBP scholastic p.182) should fit the bill.
> (Only, of course it won't <g>.)

> >>Alla:
> If we disregard the fact that I was talking about Snape as a potions
> teacher, not as DADA teacher, then Okay you got me here - Snape is a
> good teacher for Ernie Macmillan. Huge accomplishment that. :-)

Betsy Hp:
And suddenly the playing field changes.  You weren't talking about how 
JKR wrote Snape as a *teacher* anymore (to "anybody except 
Slytherins"), now we're talking specifically about *Potions* 
teaching.  (Because teaching DADA is so darn easy, is the 
implication.)  And apparently not only *are* Hufflepuffs a bunch of 
duffers, but for some reason poor Ernie is the worst of the lot.  (At 
least that's what your "huge accomplishment" remark seems to imply.)  
So really, your first question doesn't count, and can I please find 
another example to meet your exact standards.  Only, if I do, that 
won't quite suffice either.  It's frustrating.  Less a discussion than 
an exercise in verbal fencing.  You're not really interested in an 
answer to your question because you think you already know the 
answer.  Or at least, that's the impression I get.

> >>Alla:
> I won't argue bezoar with you, since again this is different
> interpretation of the same canon, but what do you mean - Slughorn
> praised him for his cheek because Harry cheated?

Betsy Hp:
Because that's what cheek is. Boldness in the face of wrongdoing.  If 
Harry was merely correct, then he'd have been, well, correct.  And if 
Ron had *also* had a bezoar it would have been correct too.  And Harry 
wouldn't have worried about Slughorn yelling at him, and Slughorn 
wouldn't have told him, yes but you still need to learn how to mix 
antidotes....

I still don't see any support whatsoever for your argument that Harry 
answered the class problem correctly.  I suspect you're not actually 
serious about that argument, and you're just making a joke, right?

Heh.  I have a feeling this post is a massive waste of time, but what 
the heck, I'll post it anyway. <g>

Betsy Hp