Subverting Prophecies, Wisemen, Horcruxes (wasRe: Role of ESE in Hero's Quest...

[susanbones2003]

No: HPFGUIDX 147932

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Neri" <nkafkafi at ...> wrote:
>
> > Betsy Hp:
> > > Betsy Hp: SNIPPED strenuously...

> > In general the Wise Old Man is something more than human.  He's 
> > someone almost god-like, or at least someone from a higher 
plain.  
> > Dumbledore is wonderfully human, IMO.  He doesn't get personal 
> > rivalries, so he failed Snape and the Marauders, and he failed 
> Harry 
> > and Snape.  I think he also fell down on the school unity issue, 
> and 
> > he certainly failed Tom Riddle.  I don't see these as 
unforgivable 
> > failures because he's made very human mistakes.  Which is, I 
think, 
> > a subversion of the Wise Old Man. 
> > 
Jen D. here,
Forgive me, really, but I am confused. How did Dumbledore fail Tom 
Riddle? Was it his inability to turn Tom around? Or deal sternly 
enough with him? Or his failure to share his suspicions with the 
Headmaster or fellow teachers? I am afraid I am missing a bigger 
point here. Enlighten me!

Jen D.
> 
> Neri:
> I think we should measure the superiority of each Wise Old Man 
> against his natural habitat. Gandalf and Yoda exist in universe 
> populated with many superhumans, so they have to be superhumans 
> themselves to compete. But Dumbledore certainly is described from 
the 
> first chapter of the series as the greatest wizard in the world 
(and 
> thus the most powerful being, as the Potterverse doesn't have 
beings 
> more powerful than wizards) with Voldemort only taking the lead in 
> the Dark Arts that Dumbledore is "too noble" to practice. And like 
I 
> showed above, while Dumbledore's characterization is indeed nicely 
> human, his role in the plot is certainly that of a rather 
stereotypic 
> Wise Old Man. 
> 
> > 
> > Betsy Hp:
> > You seem to be using "The Lord of the Rings" as an example of a 
bad 
> > fantasy tale, which is a mistake, I think.  Especially since 
> Tolkien 
> > pretty much invented the genre.  So the idea that any story that 
> > contains a plot coupon is somehow bad (which is what I think 
you're 
> > saying?) is similarly mistaken. <snip> 
> 
> Neri:
> I'm not saying that. I'm a big LotR fan, but that doesn't mean I 
> can't see it's shortcomings too. I generally agree with Lowe that 
the 
> One Ring was, from plot considerations alone, a very artificial 
plot 
> device, but that Tolkien managed to get away with it by making the 
> Ring very meaningful in the thematic sense (BTW, Tolkien also 
*just* 
> managed to get away with the deus-ex-machina of the eagles 
rescuing 
> Frodo and Sam, by invoking the clever parallel with Bilbo's story. 
He 
> was very good at just getting away with cheap plot devices). At 
any 
> rate, Tolkien was a true master of theme, language, scope and 
> atmosphere, so the bare plot was less central in LotR. But in the 
HP 
> series the plot is considerably more complex and plays a 
considerably 
> more important role, and the Horcruxes have (as of now) much less 
> thematic value than the One Ring, which is why they feel 
artificial 
> while the Ring doesn't. 


Jen D. here, very much a neophyte in discussions of this depth but 
willing to plunge in and make an idiot of myself anyway... 

>From what I can gather you two are debating, the Horcruxes seem very 
contrived to Neri, and possibly detract from the overall story 
because they are simply plot coupons, things to be cashed in for 
plot movement. I can understand what you mean but I see the 
potential at the very least, for horcruxes to be imbued with meaning 
on several levels. Horcruxes tell us something about LV. Remember DD 
telling Harry in one of their meetings that LV had "magpie-like 
tendancies?" And that he chooses objects for their deep 
significance? It could be that the horcruxes, the obtaining of them 
involves Harry's willingness to delve into the personality of LV in 
order to understand what he'd choose or how to obtain the horcruxes. 
SNIPPED 
>
> > Betsy Hp:
> > Rectify what?  How have the horcruxes ruined the story right 
now?  
> I 
> > know you *worry* that suddenly JKR will write a video game or a 
> > cheap, trite, fantasy tale (with Ginny in judiciously ripped 
gowns, 
> > I suppose? <g>) but she hasn't fallen into those sort of traps 
yet, 
> > has she?

snipped
> > 
> > Betsy Hp:
> > Quite frankly the very fact that there is more than one horcrux 
> fits 
> > neatly into Voldemort's fear of death.  "If one talisman is 
good, 
> > more talismen are better."  <snip>
> 
> Neri:
> This is a plot reason, not a thematic reason. There's usually a 
plot 
> reason explaining the existence of the plot coupon, as such 
reasons 
> are mostly very easy to manufacture.
 Neri


Jen here again:
I am not trying to grasp at straws but I do beleive JKR has a plan 
and she's probably aware of Nick Lowe as well. This is for Betsy 
especially, the number 7 has a great deal of significance and I feel 
sure she's going to expand and expound on that next book. After all, 
it's the 7th book!  7 means much more than "more than one is 
better." And I believe it can be stretched to the thematic as well 
as plot. 
Jen D, having just finished HPB for the 2nd time and ready to go 
again....
> 
> 
>>