Sadistic Teachers (was:Re: Teaching Styles)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 148033

> >>Renee:
> If I'm not mistaken, you don't attach much importance to JKR's own
> comments.

Betsy Hp:
I don't place too much importance on her *interviews*.  But I place 
a massive amount of importance on canon. (It's how I earned my LOON 
badge <g>.)  So yes, when someone decides that Snape is threatening 
Trevor because he gets a sexual charge, a perverse enjoyment, out of 
Neville's fear I look to the text to see if JKR has used any words 
to show Snape feeling that level of enjoyment.  And she 
uses "coldly" and "glittering".  Neither word suggests Snape is 
hiding a hard-on while watching Neville squirm.

> >>Renee:
> But now that you're bringing her into the discussion anyway,
> I'd like to point out again that she's the one who called Snape `a
> sadistic teacher', without qualification.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes, but that was a throw away comment.  I honestly don't think she 
meant he got a sexual charge out of tormenting students.  (It would 
rather kill the ambiguousness of his character she's tried so hard 
to build up, IMO.)  I also suspect that JKR was using a more 
informal meaning for sadistic, synonymous with mean, nasty, and 
unfair.  I get the sense that when people on this list lable Snape a 
sadist, they're going for the orignial Marquis De Sade meaning.  

> >>Renee:
> But you can't maintain she didn't intend Snape to be
> sadistic because Umbridge is a sadist. There's no reason whatsoever
> why the series shouldn't contain two sadistic teachers, each with
> their own personal brand of sadism. 

Betsy Hp:
Of course not.  I suspect Fake!Moody was a sadist as well.  He 
seemed to rather relish beating Draco.  And he held that spider 
under the Crucio curse, letting Neville suffer, until Hermione 
finally screamed at him to stop.

But that wasn't my point at all.  I was showing that JKR is quite 
capable of showing a character get pleasure out of causing another 
character pain.  She made that very clear, IMO, with Umbridge.  Yet, 
she described Snape as cold and glittery.  He never even cracked a 
smile.

> >>Renee:
> Personally, I do see Snape's sadism quite clearly. The Trevor     
> incident is sadism, because Neville is obvioulsy terrified.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
But that would mean Hagrid is a sadist for terrifying the Dursleys, 
the twins are sadists for terrifying the Dursleys, Harry is a sadist 
for terrifying the Dursleys (poor Dursleys!)...  Merely scaring 
someone doesn't make one a sadist.  There *must* be pleasure 
involved.  And even then it really needs to be of a specific sort, a 
real enjoyment in seeing someone suffering.

For example, I do not think Harry is a sadist because he enjoyed 
watching Draco get beaten by a teacher.  I think Umbridge is a 
sadist because of the intensity of her enjoyment while watching 
Harry hurt himself.

> >>Shaun:
> > The point is I don't believe it is an example of sadism. I've    
> > seen truly sadistic teachers in action - and Snape doesn't even 
> > come close. And I've had teachers who were very like Snape in    
> > their actions, and they were not sadistic.

> >>Gerry:
> Well, JKR calls Snape sadistic, almost everybody who reads the toad
> scene calls whar happens sadistic. I can only conclude you have a 
> very strange view of sadism.

Betsy Hp:
Sadism: 
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Marquis De 
*Sade*
1: a sexual perversion in which gratification is obtained by the 
infliction of physical or mental pain on others (as on a love object)
2a: delight in cruelty b: excessive cruelty
[From Merriam-Webster Online http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sadism ]

There are two ways to use the word.  One is rather casual and this 
is how I suspect JKR was using the word in her interview.  Snape can 
be a rather nasty person, and is usually pleased to catch Harry in 
wrong-doing.  That can be described as sadistic.  Just as Harry's 
daydream about smashing Snape's head in with a cauldron could also 
be described in casual terms as sadistic.

However, I get the sense that those calling Snape a sadist on the 
list really do think he's getting a sexual charge out of threatening 
Neville.  That he'd love to put Harry under a Crucio for a while and 
watch him scream.  

And sure, there are lots of people who see Snape this way. (Though I 
seriously doubt your "almost everyone" Gerry.  We Snape fans are 
plentiful <g>.)  But heck, there are a lot of people who think Draco 
races around the Slytherin dungeon in nothing by tight leather pants 
ready to plop down in the lap of any willing pure-blood.  Popularity 
don't make it canon.

Which is why I go back to the words used in the scene.  And JKR, 
somewhat uncharacteristically, is very sparse with her descriptors 
when it comes to Snape.  She uses two, one for each scene.  If she 
honestly wanted to make it as obvious as some seem to think it is, 
she could have easily made Snape's pleasure clear.  As she does 
later on with Umbridge.

While I have my own opinions, I think JKR is very neutral here.  She 
leaves the scene open to interpertation and Snape remains, as 
always, ambiguous. 

Betsy Hp