Sadistic Teachers (was:Re: Teaching Styles)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 148108

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > I get the sense that when people on this list lable Snape a 
> > sadist, they're going for the orignial Marquis De Sade meaning. 

> Renee:
> You sense this? I'd be a lot more convinced if presented with some
> hard evidence. Which people on this list who called Snape sadistic
> have suggested he got a sexual charge out of tormenting students?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes, that's the sense I get.  And I get that sense because of the 
*insistence* on using that particular word.  We can all agree that 
Snape is cruel at times, that's he's nasty at times, and that he's 
unfair (with Gryffindors pretty much all the time).  But there's 
still a demand by some that Snape be labeled a sadist.  The one 
difference between that word and the others I've used is that a 
sadist *enjoys* his cruelty.  That he really relishes watching 
someone else in pain.

The English language has a lot of words that mean *almost* the same 
thing but have subtle differences.  The difference between "mean" 
and "sadistic" is one example.  If the word "mean" isn't good 
enough, if "sadistic" is being insisted upon, then I think it's safe 
to assume that folks are going for the more exact meaning of the 
word "sadistic".

> >>Renee:   
> As for the meaning of sadistic: `deriving sexual gratification from
> inflicting pain or emotional abuse on others' isn't the only       
> official definition; `the deriving of pleasure from cruelty' is   
> another one, and I daresay one that is used more often. I don't   
> doubt most of the people who accuse Snape of sadism, JKR included, 
> are thinking of this second one.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Right.  And I used that part of the definition too.  I have no idea 
how *much* pleasure Umbridge got out of watching Harry hurt 
himself.  But it was certainly a disturbing amount.  There's no hint 
in the Trevor scene that Snape was deriving a disturbing amount of 
pleasure out of the situation.  There's nothing to suggest he was 
pleased with the situation at all.

Also,  I still disagree that JKR meant "sadistic" in the offical 
sense.  I feel that if someone asked her, "Is Snape a sadist," she'd 
either answer no, or (as she usually does) tap-dance her way into a 
non-answer.  She's worked too hard at maintaining Snape's 
ambiguousness to destroy it all in an interview.

> >>Renee:
> <snip>
> But the toad incident wasn't the only incident I mentioned in my   
> post, though it's the only one you address. Snape does
> crack a smile, and a horrible one at that, when he is about to    
> torment Harry over the Marauder's Map, for instance, and I believe 
> Alla mentioned yet another example.  

Betsy Hp:
I agree with Zgirnius' post on the Marauder's Map question, found 
here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/148086
(Thanks, Zgirnius! <g>)

And Carol answers the glittering eyes question really well here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/148100

And Alla's examples of Snape smiling when he either lectures Harry 
or takes away points, etc., do not, to my mind rise to the level of 
sadism.  Snape enjoys catching Harry in wrong doing, but I think 
it's more of an "Aha! I was *right* about you!" than an enjoyment of 
Harry's suffering.  Actually, at a time where he knew Harry was 
suffering (after Sirius's death) Snape was remarkably restrained 
when he could have really twisted the knife.

(This is actually similar to the reason why I doubt Snape hates 
Neville, or enjoys making him suffer.  Snape knows all about 
Neville's parents, and he *never* mentions them or even alludes to 
them at all.  Such a bright shiny button would be irresistable to a 
true sadist.)

> >>Gerry:
> Actually, I don't think he likes to watch Neville suffer. I think 
> he is almost perpetually angry with Neville because he is not able 
> to understand Neville's problems and that he takes it out on      
> Neville.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I pretty much agree with this Gerry.  Snape is not a sadist, so he 
doesn't like watching Neville suffer.  I also think most of his 
interactions with Neville in PoA are based on his frustration with 
Neville not learning as he should.  I'm not sure I'd take it all the 
way up to *angry*.  Because I think Snape is attempting (in his 
Snape-like way) to reach Neville, to get him over his problem with 
Potions.  I don't think he's acting emotionally with Neville (as he 
does when he's truly angry).

I think Snape's "bullying" of Neville, that Harry mentions briefly 
after the boggart incident have more to do with trying to push 
Neville onwards rather than any vengence over the boggart.  And I 
don't think Neville enjoyed a minute of it, and I doubt Snape 
enjoyed a minute of it either.  But I think it worked in the end.  
Because we don't hear about (as far as I can recall) Snape 
continuing to bully Neville in the later books, and I also believe 
we don't hear about Neville's potions going quite as wrong as they 
had done in the past.

I don't think this was the best method of dealing with Neville's 
issue, whatever it was.  And I don't think Snape was acting out of 
the goodness of his own heart. (I suspect Snape dislikes failure.)  
But I also doubt Snape attacked Neville because he's a sadist 
seeking an easy target.

Betsy Hp