Snape! Snape! Snape! Snape! Loverly Snape! Wonderful Snape! (long)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 148211

> > Alla:
> > 
> > See, I don't understand this at all. How do you know that JKR 
used 
> > the word imprecisely? IMO it is more logical to assume that she 
meant 
> > precisely what she said.
> 
> Shaun:
> 
> Two reasons.
> 
> First of all, it's because if she used the word precisely, she 
> would be claiming that Snape got sexual pleasure out of what he 
> does. That is the precise definition of sadism. And, frankly, I 
> don't think there's even a shred of indication in the text that 
> Snape gets sexual pleasure out of anything. So at the very least, 
I 
> think she must be using the term in a non-sexual sense, which is 
> already showing a lack of precision (admittedly a very common lack 
> of precision when it comes to that word).

Alla:

I am sorry but I still do not understand it. Earlier in this thread 
Renee brought up THREE definitions of sadism and Zara brought them 
up downthread again. Sure, the one about getting sexual pleasure is 
the original definition, but I COMPLETELY disagree with you that it 
is more precise one. Often words' meanings changes through the time 
OR the words acquire another definition ( so many words in Russian 
language for example pronounced the same, but have many different 
meaning either similar to each other or even completely opposite 
ones).
What I am trying to say is that I of course agree that JKR did not 
use the first definition, but IMO it is clear that she used the 
second one ( 2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive 
pleasure, from cruelty.). If she used this one, could you explain   
to me how is she being not precise in any way?

Are you saying that the second definition is less valid or less 
widespread? ( I am just trying to get clarification, I am not saying 
that this is what you are saying :-))

Come to think of it, this second definition is certainly the first 
meaning of the word "sadism" I learned and funnily enough it stayed 
with me as primary one. I know it could be just my strange 
experiences, since the book of Markis De Sad certainly was not 
widely available for reading in Soviet Union when I was growing up, 
BUT at some point it became available and when I learned the 
original definition of this word, as I said funnily enough in my 
mind it became just a secondary definition.
 
Shawn:
> But secondly and more importantly, it's because she doesn't just 
> say that Snape is a sadistic teacher. That's not the whole quote.
> 
> "Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I 
> myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we 
> are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that 
> teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular 
teacher 
> does abuse his power. He's not a particularly pleasant person at 
> all."
> 
> She doesn't just say he's a sadistic teacher. She goes on to 
> clarify this point, and explain in more detail the ways she sees 
> Snape. As somebody who abuses their power. As someone who isn't a 
> particularly pleasant person.

Alla:

Yes, I know the whole quote. But I read it as her characterizing 
Snape as BOTH sadistic teacher and the one who abuses his power. I 
think those two qualities can go well together. :-)


Shawn:
> Could I be wrong. Easily. But I think focusing on one word in one 
> interview is assuming an awful lot.

Alla:

As I said above, I really don't focus on one word. I think he is all 
of that - sadistic teacher, teacher who abuses his power, deeply 
horrible person, etc. I don't focus on one word, but I cannot ignore 
this word either.

> zgirnius:
<SNIP>
> From Dictionary.com...(two other dictionaries I checked give very 
much 
> the same three meanings for this word).
> 
> sa•dism    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sdzm, sdz-)
> n. 
> 1. The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive 
> sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on 
others. 
> 2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, 
from 
> cruelty. 
> 3. Extreme cruelty. 

<SNIP>
> Is it then definition 2.? Because I do not see much evidence for 
this, 
> either. (Perhaps you do...certainly, I know others who have 
> participated in this discussion recently do think this was the 
motive 
> for the Trevor incident, the nasty comment about Neville to Lupin, 
his 
> conversation with Harry about the Map, his horned toad detention, 
and 
> possibly other acts I am forgetting). I tend to agree with those 
> posters who have explained their ideas about Snape's motives for 
these 
> various acts, and it were not because he enjoyed these actions.

Alla:

Yes, I see plenty of evidence in the books that she meant definition 
two ( maybe she also meant definition three, but not definition 
one). As you can guess I find the explanation for those incidents 
other than Snape's enjoinment of tormenting Neville and Harry not to 
be convincing, EXCEPT your explanation about Marauder's Map. I still 
think that the fact that Snape had a "horrible smile" on his face 
can point out to the fact that he WAS having a swell time tormenting 
Harry, but sure I find your explanation to be entirely plausible.

I actually don't see how ANY " not sadistic" explanation can be 
given to the Neville's detention with "horned toads'. I think Ginger 
said that JKR really meant "lizards", but Neri very convincingly IMO 
pointed that Neville had some parts of frogs under his fingernails 
and I think Guinger agreed.

I find it an awfully funny coincidence that at the time of NEVILLE's 
detention after which he came in state of nervous collapse 
(paraphrase), Snape needed to cut frogs AND that he gave this task 
to Neville ( who as far as we know THE ONLY student who has toad as 
pet). That is IMO of course, but to me it is clear that Snape gave 
this task to Neville specifically to upset him.
I also think that no other explanation other than "deriving pleasure 
from cruelty" can be given to Snape tormenting Harry when Harry 
comes to ask for Dumbledore's help about Barty Sr. As I said before 
I really don't care whether Snape was stalling Harry till Dumbledore 
comes out, what matters to me is that he smiles while taunting the 
student in the obvious distress, IMO.

I could have bought Shawn's argument about Snape sharing his 
frustration over Neville with Lupin if..... any other teacher but 
Lupin was in Remus' place.

IMO considering their history Remus will be the very LAST person 
Snape would share any kind of frustration about any student, unless 
of course his motivation was to hurt Neville some more. Snape fought 
with Dumbledore over Lupin's appointment. I think he preferred not 
to share one more word than necessary with Remus, especially not 
sharing his frustrations over student.

 Betsy Hp:
> > Second, it's not borne out in the books.  If Snape is so 
> *obviously* 
> > supposed to be a sadist that JKR feels free to comment that of 
> > course he is, than why is doesn't she make it clear in the 
books?  
<SNIP>

Nora:
> Maybe JKR honestly thinks that she's shown it well enough?  <SNIP>

Alla:

YES, Nora. Me too. Just wanted to say it. :-)


JMO of course,

Alla