Young Dumbledore (wasRe: Why Leave Harry at HW at the End of HBP?)

[gelite67]

No: HPFGUIDX 148402

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Angie wrote:
> <snip> 
> > Second, what do we know about the nature of DD's "defeat" of 
> Grindelwald?  <snip>  I don't think LV fears DD simply because DD 
is so powerful, but because LV fears death the most and he knows that 
DD is willing and able to kill a Dark Wizard, if need be.  I think 
implicit in this is that DD is willing and able to use Dark Magic if 
necessary and has done so before (he's no novice).
> > 
> ><snip?> 
> > Finally, relating this to the HBP, if DD killed Grindewald, did he
> make a horcrux for himself?  <snip>
> 
> 
> Carol responds:
> We're told from the first chapter of the first book that Dumbledore 
is
> "too noble" to use certain types of magic, and while I realize that
> the narrator isn't always reliable and the characters aren't always
> accurate in their assessments of other characters, I will be very
> surprised if this statement is not true. For one thing, it jibes 
with
> JKR's own assessment of Dumbledore as "the epitome of goodness."
> (Granted, many of her statements in interviews are jumbled or 
evasive,
> but this one is hard to misconstrue.)
> 
> That being the case, I'm not at all willing to assume that DD killed
> Grindelvald in any way that could be considered murder or using an
> Unforgiveable Curse. We're told (in an interview) that Grindelwald 
is
> indeed dead, but the book (SS) only tells us that DD *defeated*
> Grindelwald, not killed him. Since we know that both LV and DD know 
of
> at least one wizard who made a single Horcrux, and Grindelwald's
> defeat so nicely coincides with the year that Tom Riddle left
> Hogwarts, it seems likely that the wizard in question is 
Grindelwald,
> that DD's fame results from destroying Grindelwald's Horcrux and
> therefore making him mortal, and that LV fears DD for exactly this 
reason.

Angie again:

I'll admit, I've always thought of DD as the epitome of goodness, as 
JKR said.  This is a new theory for me.

But just b/c DD is too "noble" at the beginning of SS and thereafter 
to use Dark Magic, that doesn't mean he's always been so noble or 
that he's never used Dark Magic.  I really doubt if anyone in the WW 
would view him poorly if he used Dark Magic to get rid of a Dark 
Wizard, if his conduct was otherwise above reproach.  Can you destroy 
a Horcrux without using Dark Magic???  And wasn't "murder" Slughorn's 
term -- wonder how Slughorn defines that term and if it is the same 
as the WW defines it? 

>Carol: 
> But the idea that DD would make a Horcrux himself is IMO very
> questionable. Both Slughorn and Dumbledore speak of Horcruxes as 
Dark
> magic of the worst kind, so bad that DD makes sure there are no 
books
> on the subject in the restricted section of the Hogwarts library. It
> requires not only that the Horcrux maker kill, but that he commit
> murder (Slughorn says something like, "Do I look like a murderer"?)
> *and* that he separate the piece of soul that was split off by the
> murder into an object in other to preserve his own life, 
theoretically
> forever, at the expense of the life of the person he killed. I can't
> see Dumbledore doing that at any point in his life under any
> circumstances. And we know that he isn't afraid of death. Gryffindor
> that he is, that was probably always the case. (Yes, I know that PP 
is
> a Gryffindor afraid of death, but he's extremely atypical.)
> 
> Dumbledore tells Harry about the importance of keeping his soul 
whole
> and pure, and the earnestness of this speech suggests that his own 
is
> equally whole and pure. 

Angie:
Maybe DD's soul is pure now, but it could be argued that DD's 
comments to Harry, including the one about keeping your soul pure, 
ring of "I've been there, boy; I known from whence I speak; you 
should learn from my experience."

<snip> 
Carol:
> That such a man *could* make a Horcrux, I have no doubt. That he
> *would* do it seems to me unlikely in the extreme.
>  
><snip>


Angie again:

Oh, I don't like the idea of DD creating a horcrux, either.  I'm much 
more comfortable with the idea of Grindewald having a horcrux that DD 
destroyed. I stil have to wonder, though, how DD knew about 
horcruxes, if they are the product of the darkest of magic and are 
not taught at HW, and how he knew to destroy any horcrux in the first 
place.  We know that there were no books at the HW library on the 
subject by the time TR arrived at HW -- is it possible there were 
such books at one time, but after Grindewald's defeat (if it involved 
a Horcrux) such books were removed from HW?