Is Snape good or evil? (longer)

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 148726

Dung:
Oh, suffering cats! - When you see how long this post is, you'll 
realise why it took me a while to respond...

Alla, please forgive me, I'm going to snip around the replies you 
gave (to me and other people) and paste them into (what I think is) 
your argument, so that I can refute it in (what I think is) its 
entirety. I'll do my damnedest to make sure that I'm not 
misrepresenting you, but if I am, do say so. Your argument (as far 
as I can tell) falls into five parts:

1. Snape didn't know about Draco's task 
2. Voldy didn't prompt Bella and Cissy to spinner's end
3. Snape should have refused the entire UV
4. Snape didn't tell DD about clause 3
5. Faced with a hideous choice, DD should have done *nothing*

I reckon canon is on my side when it comes to refuting all except 
number 2, which is pure theory. 

I'm going to try to set it all out as clearly as I can, because I 
think that even if you don't like it, I can force you to admit that 
my scenario is plausible. Although we're agreed that our assumptions 
differ, I want to try to show you why I think my assumptions are not 
just plausible, but based on more solid canon than yours. We all 
have to make assumptions when we theorise because we lack so much 
information, but some assumptions really are more equal than others.

And if not, I'm interested in discovering if there's a specific 
point at which we disagree which sends us off in different 
directions, rather just agreeing to disagree on a lot of 
generalities, which is pretty boring. (If anyone bandies about the 
word "naïve" I shall give them a poke with that cutlass...) 

So please (and this goes for all disagreements I have here) don't 
take my arguing to stem from disagreement (I do disagree, but that's 
not why I'm arguing), I'm trying to understand where and how and (ok 
this is a bit optimistic) *why* we disagree. Look at it as an 
intellectual exercise in working out how we differ.

That said, I will pull no punches.

******************************************************
SNAPE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT DRACO'S TASK
Alla:
Okay, so basically everything that would point to Snape being DD!M
was concealed, right? But then again, why are you sure that Snape
knew about Draco's task? 

Dung:
It's canon. You're the one who's putting in the assumption that he's 
lying when he says:
"It so happens that I know of the plan ... I am one of the few the 
Dark Lord has told." (HBP ch2 UK p37.)

Alla: 
Couldn't that be a lie too to find out information for Dumbledore or 
something?

Dung:
Of course he *could* be lying, I don't deny that possibility, but 
give me *some* argument, proof, canon – whatever that suggests he 
is, please. Otherwise, you have to admit that it is at least 
*possible* that he is telling the truth, and that your assumption 
that he's lying is just that: an assumption based on *no* canon. 
Whereas I am making no assumptions at all, I'm taking canon at face 
value.


******************************************************
VOLDY DIDN'T PROMPT BELLA AND CISSY TO SPINNER'S END
Alla: But again this is goes from different assumptions we have. I 
am NOT as sure as you are that the meeting was instigated by 
Voldemort, I can totally see Narcissa going to Snape of her own 
initiative and Bella tagging along maybe hoping to give Voldemort 
useful spying info, BUT I see no definite evidence that Voldemort 
was behind arranging the meeting in the first place, from very 
beginning.

Dung:
Right, this is the toughest bit for me, because (I may as well come 
clean) it's basically a hunch. But even if I turn out to be wrong, I 
think it's a good theory (which is the whole point, after all).

Do you think Narcissa knows that Voldy threatened to kill *her* as 
well as Draco if he failed? I suspect not, because she never 
mentions that her life is in danger, she's just going to pieces 
about Draco. Since she's so desperate to get help from Snape, you'd 
think she'd mention anything at all that might induce him to help 
her, wouldn't you? So I don't think she knows about that.

Yet she also says "The Dark Lord has forbidden me to speak of it." 
Which must mean that she heard about the plan from him directly, but 
*not* at the same time that Draco did, otherwise she'd know that her 
life was in danger too. (It's a little flimsy, but perfectly 
plausible, right?)

So we have Snape, Draco and Narcissa who have all been told about 
Draco's task *personally* and *separately* by Voldemort. (Sounds 
*just* like Old Snake Eyes to me.) We can plausibly say that Bella 
was also told personally, but she may have been told at the same 
time as Draco. 

It will come as no surprise to you that I think the instructions 
each received differed ever so slightly.

1. Draco.
It's a fair bet that when Voldemort was giving Draco his 
instructions, he didn't mention anything at all about Snape, he 
certainly didn't order Draco to cooperate with him. Otherwise, in 
the overheard conversation at Slughorn's party, we would expect one 
of Snape's arguments to be that Voldy had ordered it, and Snape 
doesn't say anything like that, he just whinges about the UV. 

2. Bella.
Voldy must know that Bella doesn't trust Snape, she hardly keeps it 
quiet, does she? Bella was teaching Draco Occlumency. Draco insists 
to Snape that "I've got all the assistance I need, thanks, I'm not 
alone!" (HBP ch15 UK p303) So it's possible that Draco was told to 
cooperate with Bella. Bella assumes this is because Voldy has 
rightly decided (even if he won't say it outright) that Snape can't 
be trusted, which is why she's so surprised to find out that Snape 
actually does know about the plan.

Look at it this way: why didn't Draco trust Snape? Why did Voldemort 
put Draco on the job, and *not* demand that he cooperate with Snape? 
Certainly, he wanted Draco to fail so he could kill him and teach 
Lucius a lesson, but I'm also convinced that Voldy very cleverly 
tied in testing Snape's loyalty and punishing Lucius with his 
ultimate goal, which was getting DD out of the way. If Bella noticed 
Snape slithering out of action, it's hardly likely that Voldy 
didn't. You agree that getting Snape to finish the task when Draco 
failed was a test of Snape's loyalty, right? 

If Draco doesn't tell Snape what he's up to, firstly it massively 
reduces the chance of DD and Snape being able to interfere (in case 
Voldy's trust in Snape *is* misplaced), and secondly it puts Snape 
in the position of having to follow orders without being in on the 
planning behind them. Snape doesn't know what Draco's doing, nor 
when he'll act, but he has to be waiting, ready to finish the task 
at a moment's notice when Draco fails. I think that's the kind of 
test Voldy would want, don't you? "Just do as I say, when I say, no 
questions." 

So I reckon Voldy deliberately got Bella and Draco together on this, 
so that Bella would impress on Draco the need to keep the plan from 
Snape. Make sense?

3. Narcissa.
Voldy's certainly not above a little manipulation. He could easily 
plant the idea while apparently torturing Wormtail for being 
useless - "I should make each of you swear an Unbreakable Vow!" 
Likewise he could casually remind Cissy that Snape will be at 
Hogwarts, though without directly implying that Snape could look 
after Draco, of course, just a little hint, a little nudge. He's a 
legilimens, after all, he can manipulate people beautifully (could 
do since he was a kid), he knows just how much information to give, 
and just where to draw the line.

4. Snape.
Voldy tells Snape about Draco's task, and implies that he doesn't 
want Snape interfering, he insists that Draco must try. But after 
that... when Draco fails (as he surely will)... well.
Snape isn't daft enough to miss an anvil like that.

That's the toughest bit to swallow, anyway – the rest is more 
chocolatey. Basically, either Voldy is behind Bella and Cissy's 
visit to Spinner's End and the UV, or JKR has set up an awful lot 
of coincidences in order to limit Snape's choices. 

******************************************************
SNAPE SHOULD HAVE REFUSED THE ENTIRE UV
Alla: 
SURE, if Snape had refused only clause 3 the game would be up, no 
question about it. What I am NOT sure about is whether the game
would be up if Snape refused to take UV at all.

Absolutely, as I said above, he should not have taken UV AT ALL, IMO
of course. He should have told Narcissa that she is NOT supposed to
divulge Dark Lord confidence and threw them both out and Bella could
have been even happy with it, IMO. <snip> The very plausible excuse 
would have been IMO to stop Narcissa from divulging Dark Lord's 
loyalties.
<snip quote from Spinner's End>
I could not stop myself from quoting because I think that if Snape
is a DD!M that would have been a PERFECT moment to make Narcissa
leave AND Bella would have been happy too. I think her report to
Voldie would have been that Snape as a faithful DE refused to talk
about his secrets.

Dung:
This is why I specified that the reasons for Snape refusing the UV 
are *not* based on 20/20 hindsight. Snape is a *spy*. That involves 
not just being nominally on the Dark Lord's side, maintaining his 
cover and keeping out of trouble, but actively *seeking* information 
to pass to Dumbledore. When presented with the opportunity to look 
after Draco on his Mother's behalf, Snape has to jump at it. What 
would DD say if he reported that Narcissa had come to him begging 
for help, spilling secrets about Draco right left and centre, and 
that Snape had cold-shouldered her with the excuse that it would 
have made Voldy cross? 

Remember that Snape *already* knows that Draco's task is to kill DD, 
and he *already* suspects that Voldy wants him to complete it, and 
he has *already* discussed this with DD. 

He *doesn't* know how Draco is going about the task. He might 
suspect (or have been told by Voldy) that Bella has been told to 
help Draco, and he certainly knows that Bella doesn't trust him.  

Zgirnius understood me absolutely right:
"He [Snape] reasonably believed [the vow] was going to be about 
protecting and watching over and helping Draco, this is what had 
been mentioned in the conversation leading up to Cissy's request) 
and he took the Vow becuase he believed it cost him nothing.
<snip>
"And, for this little cost, Snape could gain the trust of Bella 
(thus shutting up her whispering campaign), Cissy, and perhaps 
Draco, which might let him learn the details of HOW Draco planned to 
carry out his
assignment.
"It was only when Narcissa cornered him that he would have realized
who was REALLY behind things."

Dung:
Succinct and exactly what I was getting at. Thanks.

Responding to Zgirnius, Alla wrote:
I see so MANY things that are wrong with agreeing to take UV to 
protect Draco [if Snape doesn't suspect that Cissy will add clause 
3 – Dung]. First one is what I said in my earlier post - to me it 
strikes VERY close to being an accessory to the murder. Snape does 
NOT just takes UV to protect Draco. He takes UV to protect and help 
him while Draco tries to carry out the assasination of the  
Headmaster. Yep, I think it is wrong on many levels.

Dung:
Ok, you think it's wrong on many levels, but you've only specified 
one level, so that's all I'm able to argue against. Do let me know 
what the others are, won't you?

Snape has *already* discussed this with Dumbledore, before Cissy and 
Bella even turn up, he knows that Draco is ordered to kill DD or die 
trying. What would Dumbledore tell him? "Find out as much as you can 
about what Draco's planning, and we'll have an excellent chance of 
stopping the whole thing, we might even be able to find a way of 
maintaining your cover," surely? 

Or do you think he'd rather insist that Snape has nothing more to do 
with Draco on moral grounds because Draco's plotting *murder*? 
Neither DD nor Snape has that luxury, this is a *war*. There are 
more important things at stake; there is spying to be done, and 
lives hang in the balance. Based on the information Snape has before 
he takes the vow, I think DD wouldn't blame him at all.

While we're at it, I'll just remind you of what DD says on the 
tower, which Chrustoxos thinks proves Snape's evil (msg 148723).

Chrustoxos:
"I was surprised about a sentence DD told Draco on the tower, but 
maybe it is a stupid sentence (English is not my first language...).

"DD: "I asked SS to watch over you..."
Draco: "He was protecting me because he made an UV to my mother"
DD: "This is what he may have told you, but"

"MAY have told you? Well, it was the truth, wasn't it? Whatever SS 
was doing on DD's orders, his primary goal in watch over DM was to 
fulfil the UV and thus save his own life."

Dung:
I will take the liberty of finishing off DD's sentence.
"This is what he may have told you, but actually I ordered him to 
watch over you well before he even took the vow. In fact, he only 
took the vow because he thought it would make you trust him enough 
to tell him what you were up to so he could stop it."

******************************************************
SNAPE DIDN'T TELL DD ABOUT CLAUSE 3

Alla: Yes, if Snape confessed to DD the third clause right away, I 
can see your scenario. My only problem is I don't. I see Snape as 
incredibly arrogant person, I am always right sort of character and 
if I am wrong, I will deal with it by myself.

Dung:
Have you never noticed that the Snape-DD interactions we see have a 
very different flavour to the Snape-Harry interactions? In *each* 
case, Snape defers to DD, he is never rude to DD, he is never 
sarcastic to DD. At one time in the past he confessed *remorse* to 
DD. 

Don't make me conclude that we disagree because you lack 
imagination, Alla, because I don't believe it. Come on, admit that 
it's possible.

Besides, since Snape clearly told DD about clauses 1 and 2 of the 
vow, and when Harry mentions it he says "I think you might even 
consider the possibility that I understood more than you did," 
again, canon favours me saying that he did tell DD. You're pointing 
to a lack of concrete evidence and shouting that it's evidence of 
absence, which I'm afraid it is not.

Alla:
I also (Nora said it so much better) don't quite buy Snape as DD 
right hand man argument. 

Dung:
I never made the "Snape as DD's right-hand man" argument. Snape was 
simply reporting to DD as any spy does to his boss. I don't (for 
what it's worth) think that Snape knows about the Horcruxes. I do 
think that he reports what he hears at DE meetings to DD and/or the 
Order. That's hardly controversial, is it? Actually, from OotP, it's 
canon.

******************************************************
FACED WITH A HIDEOUS CHOICE, DD SHOULD HAVE DONE *NOTHING*
Alla:
If the situation played out as you described ( which again I am not
so sure it did), sure Dumbledore is in a difficult situation here.

I cannot see Dumbledore saying "Gee, Severus, old chump, thank you
SO much for making my death coming so much faster. Now I have to
leave sixteen year old boy to complete horcruxes hunt. But by all
means if push comes to shove, kill me ASAP". Sorry, just don't see
it.

What would I think Dumbledore could have done if this situation
played out as you described? Probably suggesting trying to fool the
UV, since there is no definite time frame in the UV itself.

Just to be clear - by fooling the UV I was suggesting that
Dumbledore would tell Snape to try and keep postponing the task
indefinitely, NOT meticulously planning his death all year.

Dung:
Alla, you know full-well that Snape was NOT meticulously planning 
DD's death all year (whether he's DDM or not), *Draco* was, and he 
*wouldn't let Snape know what he was up to*. Please stick to canon. 
Snape was doing his damnedest to find out what Draco was up to so 
that they could stall it – but Draco held fast. What else was Snape 
to do?

Alla:
But I came to realise that even more precise answer to Dung's
question exists and it would be IMO VERY IC for Dumbledore.

I think Dumbledore would have done NOTHING, just sort of letting
events to play out and hoping for the best.

Dungrollin:
:: mind boggles :: You think sticking his fingers in his ears and 
singing loudly is typically Dumbledorean?! You don't think he would 
have tried to give Snape a little direction, perhaps some sympathy, 
somewhere? Are you really telling me that you think once Snape has 
told DD about clause 3, Dumbledore ignores him, sticks his head in 
the sand, and *never mentions it again*? 

Ok, let's (for the sake of argument) assume that you're partially 
right, and that Dumbledore doesn't demand anything of Snape, he 
allows Snape to make the choice for himself. DDM!Snape says "I've 
had enough anyway, I want out. I'll die with the vow, thanks." 
(Frankly, I think that dying would be the soft option, the "easy" 
rather than the "right", but you'd probably disagree.)

Dumbledore would (I think) say: "All right, if that's what you want. 
But promise me one thing, if Draco fails, and I am unable to protect 
him for any reason – for example if he manages to produce a Death 
Eater accomplice who will kill me instead, promise me you'll do it, 
promise me that you'll kill me first so that you are alive and able 
to keep Draco safe, away from Voldemort."

Snape probably has as low opinion of Draco's chances of doing just 
that as anybody, so he promises. But then, at Slughorn's party, 
Draco tells him that he's *got* help. Snape faithfully relays this 
information to DD (on the edge of the Forbidden Forest), and DD 
reminds him of his promise, at which point Snape tries to back out, 
saying he doesn't want to have to protect the insolent little scab 
anyway, and he'd rather die. 

And then on the tower, "Severus... please..."

It all fits, you know.

******************************************************
CONCLUSIONS/CAVEATS/OTHER STUFF

To be sure, I know that I'm hanging an awful lot on a few lines of 
canon, mostly: "He intends me to do it in the end, I think." But 
it's a hell of a lot more canon than LOLLIPOPS has – ships have been 
floated on much less.

The other DDM!Snape theories I've read rely on DD being on his way 
out due to the potion, split-second legilimency between Snape and DD 
on the tower, and a number of other tricks. I think my version 
(which I may as well label the DELUSIONAL variant since I don't have 
another title handy) is more firmly rooted in canon, and relies on 
fewer assumptions. 

But I may as well tell you what I think about the potion and DD's 
state on the tower while I'm at it. Um... some DDM!Snapers might not 
like it...

The potion in the cave had one plot function, which was to disable 
DD so that he was vulnerable to Draco. Draco *had* to fail because 
he was unable to take that last leap into darkness and kill an 
unarmed man to save his own life. (No sarcastic comparisons with 
Snape here, please, DELUSIONAL DDM!Snape didn't want to do it at 
all.) If DD had been healthy, he would have overpowered Draco and 
sorted out the DEs in the flick of a wand, and there goes the 
*entire* plot of HBP.

In other words, Draco only got as far as he did through pure 
luck. "I am more defenceless than you can have dreamed of finding 
me." (HBP ch27 UK p551.)

A little aside re Rotten Apples (which is a nice name for the theory 
I outlined in the Small Choice in Rotten Apples thread, despite the 
fact that it's not an acronym). Draco had the "kill or be killed" 
choice too, you know, except that he had an obvious way out - 
confessing all and trusting that DD could protect him, which he 
*didn't* take. What I've written above might go some way to 
explaining better why I'm a bit obsessed with rotten choices, and 
why I think this particular choice will come up again so that we can 
see how Harry deals with it.

Dungrollin
Again, apologising for the length, but wanting to be thorough.