Is Snape good or evil? (longer)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 148733

> Dung:
<SNIP>
> Your argument (as far
> as I can tell) falls into five parts:
>
> 1. Snape didn't know about Draco's task
> 2. Voldy didn't prompt Bella and Cissy to spinner's end
> 3. Snape should have refused the entire UV
> 4. Snape didn't tell DD about clause 3
> 5. Faced with a hideous choice, DD should have done *nothing*

Alla:

Correct, except number 5, but that is totally my fault. I did not
make it clear. I don't think Dumbledore SHOULD have done nothing,
but I do think that it is a huge possibility that he WOULD have done
nothing based on his actions in the past and as you said - let Snape
figuring things for himself and stay aside and watch.


Dung:
>> I'm going to try to set it all out as clearly as I can, because I
> think that even if you don't like it, I can force you to admit
that
> my scenario is plausible.

Alla:

Erm... sure it is plausible. I said that already if you can convince
me that those basic assumptions that we differ on could come true as
you predict and so far I was not convinced. But let's continue
then. :-)


> ******************************************************
> SNAPE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT DRACO'S TASK
> Alla:
> Okay, so basically everything that would point to Snape being DD!M
> was concealed, right? But then again, why are you sure that Snape
> knew about Draco's task?
>
> Dung:
> It's canon. You're the one who's putting in the assumption that
he's
> lying when he says:
> "It so happens that I know of the plan ... I am one of the few the
> Dark Lord has told." (HBP ch2 UK p37.)

Alla:

And let me go back again to the Snape's whole story in Spinner's
End. OF COURSE what you just cited is canon, but could you explain
to me again what is the reason you take this canon at face value,
but not Snape's wonderful story to Bella about 'spinning tale of
deepest remorse" to Dumbledore and having a hand in the murders of
Emmelyne Vance and Sirius as a lie. You CHOOSE to think that Snape
is lying in this part of the story, no? I am truly puzzled here. You
assume that Snape is good, right, therefore you choose to disbelieve
this part of the story, correct?


> Alla:
> Couldn't that be a lie too to find out information for Dumbledore
or
> something?
>
> Dung:
> Of course he *could* be lying, I don't deny that possibility, but
> give me *some* argument, proof, canon – whatever that suggests he
> is, please. Otherwise, you have to admit that it is at least
> *possible* that he is telling the truth, and that your assumption
> that he's lying is just that: an assumption based on *no* canon.
> Whereas I am making no assumptions at all, I'm taking canon at
face
> value.

Alla:

See above. I will agree with you that Snape is telling the truth
here if you agree with me that he is telling the truth to Bella
about other things. :) As far as I am concerned, he can be lying
through his teeth the whole time OR he can be telling the truth the
whole time OR of course he can be doing both, but we both make
assumptions when he does what, no?

I can say the same thing - your assumption that Snape was not
telling the truth in the part of the story which does not portray
him in a good light is also not based on the canon.


>
> ******************************************************
> VOLDY DIDN'T PROMPT BELLA AND CISSY TO SPINNER'S END
> Alla: But again this is goes from different assumptions we have. I
> am NOT as sure as you are that the meeting was instigated by
> Voldemort, I can totally see Narcissa going to Snape of her own
> initiative and Bella tagging along maybe hoping to give Voldemort
> useful spying info, BUT I see no definite evidence that Voldemort
> was behind arranging the meeting in the first place, from very
> beginning.
>
> Dung:
> Right, this is the toughest bit for me, because (I may as well
come
> clean) it's basically a hunch. But even if I turn out to be wrong,
I
> think it's a good theory (which is the whole point, after all).
<HUGE SNIP go UPTHREAD to read it>

Alla:

Right, this is a great theory, no question about it, but my main
objection to it would be that IMO you give Voldy way, way too much
credit.

I don't see Voldie capable of giving everybody that set of
complicated different instructions you described. The way I see it,
he came to Malfoys home or called Draco to him )probably with
Narcissa and/or Bella present and gave him the instructions. I think
it is perfectly plausible that Narcissa learned about the task from
Draco, if she was not present.

Sorry, but my belief in Voldie analytical and loeadership skills
shook very very firmly if they ever existed  after instead of
killing Harry in Graveyeard he let him have his wand back.

I do think that Voldie is not above little manipulation, but not
that complex manipulation you described - as in keeping three level
operation together in his little head - trying to kill Dumbledore,
testing Snape's loyalty and punishing Malfoys. I can barely give him
credit for doing two levels at the same time - planning to kill DD
and punishing Malfoys. I think testing Snape's loyalty at the same
time would be a bit out of Voldie's league. Come to think of it,
maybe I got confused, but why exactly Voldie does need to test
Snape's loyalty from your position?

I mean, he seemed to accept ALL his followers back after many years
of them doing whatever things, when he was Vapormort. And if Snape
was telling the truth in Spinner's End, he was perfectly satisfied
with Snape's appearance in GoF? Oh, and again if you think Snape was
lying, what is your reason for that assumption?

> Dung:
> Remember that Snape *already* knows that Draco's task is to kill
DD,
> and he *already* suspects that Voldy wants him to complete it, and
> he has *already* discussed this with DD.

Alla:

Right, in your argument I understand that.


> Responding to Zgirnius, Alla wrote:
> I see so MANY things that are wrong with agreeing to take UV to
> protect Draco [if Snape doesn't suspect that Cissy will add clause
> 3 – Dung]. First one is what I said in my earlier post - to me it
> strikes VERY close to being an accessory to the murder. Snape does
> NOT just takes UV to protect Draco. He takes UV to protect and
help
> him while Draco tries to carry out the assasination of the
> Headmaster. Yep, I think it is wrong on many levels.
>
> Dung:
> Ok, you think it's wrong on many levels, but you've only specified
> one level, so that's all I'm able to argue against. Do let me know
> what the others are, won't you?
>
> Snape has *already* discussed this with Dumbledore, before Cissy
and
> Bella even turn up, he knows that Draco is ordered to kill DD or
die
> trying. What would Dumbledore tell him? "Find out as much as you
can
> about what Draco's planning, and we'll have an excellent chance of
> stopping the whole thing, we might even be able to find a way of
> maintaining your cover," surely?

> Or do you think he'd rather insist that Snape has nothing more to
do
> with Draco on moral grounds because Draco's plotting *murder*?
> Neither DD nor Snape has that luxury, this is a *war*. There are
> more important things at stake; there is spying to be done, and
> lives hang in the balance. Based on the information Snape has
before
> he takes the vow, I think DD wouldn't blame him at all.

Alla:

Sorry, I can see DD saying find out as much as you can. But I cannot
see Dumbledore saying take an UV, even if it helps you finding out
as much as you can.   That is just my read of Dumbledore's character
and books in general which is different from yours on fundamental
meta-level, but I am sure you know that. That is why it is so hard
to argue when we have basically different basics to start from.

And yes, I see Dumbledore telling Snape not to tal
I don't see the books as "spying games", before you start giving me
examples of erm...spies, I know they are there, but IMO they are
there for very different purposes than to create as someone
suggested in the past the books a la John Le Carre "Spy who came
from the cold".

I see the books as the books about human nature, power of love and
forgiveness  AND carmic punishment too and to tell you the truth so
far I had been incredibly happy with  the directions they are going.

I don't see Dumbledore as Puppetmaster!. I see him as a good man
struggling to make horrible choices and trying to keep the souls of
his soldiers intact too. That is why it is so HARD for me to imagine
that Dumbledore would order Snape to kill him, basically impossible,
ESPECIALLY planning for it in advance. I can see dying Dumbledore
asking Snape to do it on the Tower. I am saying it with gritted
teeth, believe me. I cannot see alive and healthy Dumbledore to ask
that of Snape. I especially cannot see alive and healthy Dumbledore
so easily abandoning Harry to Horcrux hunt and going to die for
Snape.

And that is all if Snape indeed talked to Dumbledore. Which I am
really really not sure about.

> Alla: Yes, if Snape confessed to DD the third clause right away, I
> can see your scenario. My only problem is I don't. I see Snape as
> incredibly arrogant person, I am always right sort of character
and
> if I am wrong, I will deal with it by myself.
>
> Dung:
> Have you never noticed that the Snape-DD interactions we see have
a
> very different flavour to the Snape-Harry interactions? In *each*
> case, Snape defers to DD, he is never rude to DD, he is never
> sarcastic to DD. At one time in the past he confessed *remorse* to
> DD.

Alla:
Hmm, I may be lacking imagination to imagine your scenario, that's
for sure. NO, I don't think Snape always defers to Dumbledore. Just
reread the conversation with Fudge,which Nora was talking about,
where Snape hopes DD will not interfer. Just reread "have you
forgotten that Sirius Black tried to kill ME". I think it is very
possible that by saving Sirius' life in PoA Dumbledore unknowingly
helped to stir growing resentment in Snape. IMO of course.

Dung:
> Besides, since Snape clearly told DD about clauses 1 and 2 of the
> vow, and when Harry mentions it he says "I think you might even
> consider the possibility that I understood more than you did,"
> again, canon favours me saying that he did tell DD. You're
pointing
> to a lack of concrete evidence and shouting that it's evidence of
> absence, which I'm afraid it is not.

Alla:

I am afraid we do have to agree to disagree, because frankly I am
not even sure that Dumbledore knew about first two clauses, although
of course it is possible that he did based on that conversation, but
maybe he learned from using legilimency on Draco for example, no?

In any event, to me the lack of evidence is enough to assume that DD
did not know about clause three. Sorry!

> Alla:
> I also (Nora said it so much better) don't quite buy Snape as DD
> right hand man argument.
>
> Dung:
> I never made the "Snape as DD's right-hand man" argument. Snape
was
> simply reporting to DD as any spy does to his boss. I don't (for
> what it's worth) think that Snape knows about the Horcruxes. I do
> think that he reports what he hears at DE meetings to DD and/or
the
> Order. That's hardly controversial, is it? Actually, from OotP,
it's
> canon.
>

Alla: Oh, I think you are the first Snape defender then not to make
such an argument. Sorry! Seems like everybody does, while I don't
buy it all.

But that begs a question  - if you don't think that Snape knmew
about Horcruxes, which I think is perfectly plausible too - DD did
not have to tell Snape how he got hurt, just what curse was used to
protect the ring. What use do you think Snape may have to help Harry
in book 7?

Alla:
> Just to be clear - by fooling the UV I was suggesting that
> Dumbledore would tell Snape to try and keep postponing the task
> indefinitely, NOT meticulously planning his death all year.
>
> Dung:
> Alla, you know full-well that Snape was NOT meticulously planning
> DD's death all year (whether he's DDM or not), *Draco* was, and he
> *wouldn't let Snape know what he was up to*. Please stick to
canon.

Alla:

Erm... Sorry. I meant that DUMBLEDORE would not be meticulously
planning his own death all year in order to help out Snape.


> Dungrollin:
> :: mind boggles :: You think sticking his fingers in his ears and
> singing loudly is typically Dumbledorean?! You don't think he
would
> have tried to give Snape a little direction, perhaps some
sympathy,
> somewhere? Are you really telling me that you think once Snape has
> told DD about clause 3, Dumbledore ignores him, sticks his head in
> the sand, and *never mentions it again*?

Alla:

Prior to book 6, how many examples we have of
Dumbledore's "PROACTIVE" planning? Yes, I know we have him netioning
of his "plan" in OOP, but since no more detailed description to
follow, I will stick to the assumption that DD plan was to keep
Harry safe. Oh, and not checking on Harry during his before Hogwarts
time also tells me that DD let's things play out and hopes for the
best. I can be wrong of course.

Dung:
> Ok, let's (for the sake of argument) assume that you're partially
> right, and that Dumbledore doesn't demand anything of Snape, he
> allows Snape to make the choice for himself. DDM!Snape says "I've
> had enough anyway, I want out. I'll die with the vow, thanks."
> (Frankly, I think that dying would be the soft option, the "easy"
> rather than the "right", but you'd probably disagree.)

Alla:

Yes, I think we do disagree again. But mostly because I think Snape
is too cowardly to embrace his great adventure with head up. Again
my speculative opinion.

Dung:
> Dumbledore would (I think) say: "All right, if that's what you
want.
> But promise me one thing, if Draco fails, and I am unable to
protect
> him for any reason – for example if he manages to produce a Death
> Eater accomplice who will kill me instead, promise me you'll do
it,
> promise me that you'll kill me first so that you are alive and
able
> to keep Draco safe, away from Voldemort."

Alla:

You see, that is my very main problem. Regardless of what Snape said
to DD, I cannot for the life of me to see Dumbledore EVER asking
Snape to do that, because IMO he would prefer Snape's soul not be
hurt more.

Dung:
> Snape probably has as low opinion of Draco's chances of doing just
> that as anybody, so he promises. But then, at Slughorn's party,
> Draco tells him that he's *got* help. Snape faithfully relays this
> information to DD (on the edge of the Forbidden Forest), and DD
> reminds him of his promise, at which point Snape tries to back
out,
> saying he doesn't want to have to protect the insolent little scab
> anyway, and he'd rather die.

Alla:

Or Snape says that he does not want to teach DADA anymore, because
he just learned that position is indeed cursed. Or Snape simply
wants out of spying. Or Snape does not want to watch over Harry
anymore. Oh, the possibilities.

Dung:
> And then on the tower, "Severus... please..."

Alla:

"Severus...please... not Harry...take me instead" I still find this
suggestion by a_svirn to be very fitting here.

Dung:
> It all fits, you know.

Alla:
Okay. :-)

Dung:
> ******************************************************
> CONCLUSIONS/CAVEATS/OTHER STUFF
>
> To be sure, I know that I'm hanging an awful lot on a few lines of
> canon, mostly: "He intends me to do it in the end, I think." But
> it's a hell of a lot more canon than LOLLIPOPS has – ships have
been
> floated on much less.

Alla:

No, I don't think you are hanging too much on this canon line. I
think it is a very cool theory, I just don't see the reason to
assume that this line is the truth, that is all. IMO of course.


> Dung:
<SNIP>
> I've never denied that I have to make assumptions – in fact I made 
> it explicit. Perhaps you missed the bit of my post where I said 
that 
> I was trying to prove my assumptions were more firmly rooted in 
> canon than Alla's. You seem to be dismissing them as equally valid 
> (or not) as any other assumptions, simply because they're 
> assumptions, without even looking at the evidence I presented. 

Alla:

So far I absolutely don't see how your assumptions are more firmly 
rooted in canon than mine. Sorry! I base my assumption of Snape bad 
behaviour(in part) on one part of Spinner's End, which I choose to 
believe is true, you on the other hand choose to believe that 
another part of Snape's story is true, which I think is a lie ( and 
I think that I am actually helping DD!M Snape by believing that this 
is a lie)

IMO,

Alla