Is Snape good or evil? (longer)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 148740

> Tammy says, now:
>  
> But Alla, right up at the top of this message, you 
say, "REGARDLESS of what
> Snape said to DD", meaning (at least, to my reading), that it 
wouldn't
> matter to you if Dumbledore knew of the whole UV, or of part of 
the UV, or
> of which part of the UV, or even if had never heard about the UV, 
you could
> never see Dumbledore asking Snape to put a student's life and 
welfare above
> Snape's own pristine soul.  See, that doesn't track, for me.  I 
don't think
> Dumbledore would have wanted Snape whole and Draco dead, if Snape 
could do
> *something*, even killing someone, to protect Draco, a student.

Alla:

Yes, that is correct. I do NOT see DD asking Snape to kill him 
whether Snape told him about UV or not, BUT what I also do not see 
is how Dumbledore NOT asking Snape to kill him follows necessarily 
to Draco being dead. I see Dumbledore trying to protect Draco (way 
too generous of him, if you ask me, but totally IC for DD to give 
people second and third chances), I do NOT see DD actively willing 
to die on the Tower. I think Dumbledore was thinking of Draco's 
protection as in Him(DD) being alive and carrying through those 
plans. I think Dumbledore has very real tangible reasons to stay 
alive for the sake of all those students and of course  the most 
important task on the horison IMO was to help Harry in his task.

Tammy:
> Even if DD knew nothing about the UV, I still think that he would 
have
> preferred a student alive, at whatever cost to a teacher, 
regardless of who
> that student and teacher were.  <SNIP> To
> suggest that DD would have EVER put a teacher's welfare above a 
student's,
> for whatever reason, is ludicrous.

Alla:

Oh, Okay then. I agree with you - DD is trying to protect his 
students first and foremost. Would you agree then that Dumbledore 
would do ANYTHING to stay alive to protect Harry at whatever cost to 
Snape ?



> > Alla:
> > 
> > See above. I will agree with you that Snape is telling the truth
> > here if you agree with me that he is telling the truth to Bella
> > about other things. :) As far as I am concerned, he can be lying
> > through his teeth the whole time OR he can be telling the truth 
the
> > whole time OR of course he can be doing both, but we both make
> > assumptions when he does what, no?
> 
> zgirnius:
> OK, you believe that the blood of Sirius and Emmeline Vance is on 
> Snape's hands, because he only told the truth to the Black sisters 
at 
> Spinner's End. (Apparently-you seem to be saying we have to take 
it 
> as an all or nothing proposition). 

Alla:

No, Zara, the last part of the sentence you quote suggests( I hoped 
at least :)) that I don't think that it has to be all or nothing 
proposition, because I said that he can be doing both ( telling 
truth and lying). I am just having tremendous trouble with being 
sure what IS truth and what IS lie. What I AM saying is that I don't 
see  the reliable criteria for figuring out which part of his speech 
is what and that is why everything is fair game, IMO. I do NOT have 
trouble with playing and speculating about it. I LOVE, LOVE 
speculating, always was, but I don't think that deciding that 
something is true and something is lie, when we don't know makes 
such assumption more canon-based, that is all.

I think Dung's theory is a great one, it is just based on the 
assumption which can easily turned out to be an absolute lie, IMO.

Zara:
> Why, then, did he set out to deliberately antagonize this person, 
who 
> might grow up to be his leader in the future, the very first time 
> they met? Or are you suggesting he could tell Harry was a 
mediocrity 
> based on his answer to three question in Potions? It seems more 
> likely that Snape is lying here, it is just a good reason to give 
> because it is something that was considered by other Death Eaters.

Alla:

Are you sure that you are asking a right person? :-) I don't have a 
very favorable answer, you know. I think Snape has no rationality 
when it comes to Harry. I think all his rational assumptions flew 
out of the window when he saw James' face and Lily's eyes staring at 
him. I think he wanted to get back at Harry as much as he never got 
a chance to get back at James. Just speculating here, you know. :)

Zgirnius:
> The statement about Sirius seems to be contradicted by other 
canon. 
> We have heard the explanation of how Kreacher set Harry up to 
believe 
> that Sirius was out of his house at the crucial moment, and how he 
> passed information to the bad guys. 

Alla:

I don't think it is contradicted, I think it can be easily 
supplemented by Snape's story, but Okay. What contradicts Snape 
playing a part in Vance murder? The only contradiction I see is the 
choice not to believe it because people see Snape as good guy. IMO 
of course. I think it is fair enough. I also explain many Snape's 
actions based on what I think about him. 

Zgirnius:
So instead of deciding Snape is either the reincarnation of George 
> Washington or constitutionally incapable of telling the Black 
sisters 
> a single true thing, I think the only thing to consider is, 
together 
> with everything else we know, is it more reasonable to suppose 
> Voldemort did tell Snape about Draco's task, or that Snape was 
> bluffing here?

Alla:

Sure, it IS reasonable to think about that and I come to the 
conclusion as of today that he did not tell Snape.

Zgirnius:
> In favor of Voldemort telling him:
> 1) It is stupid to plan a potentially disruptive operation in a 
> location where one has a mole, and NOT warn said mole at least in 
> general terms. This will allow the mole to keep his head down and 
not 
> become collateral damage if things go haywire. 

Alla:

Just as stupid as giving Harry his wand back instead of killing him 
right away in Graveyard? I guess Voldy just does not strike me as 
too rational type.

Zgirnius:
> 2) It will also ensure that Snape does not interfere. In PS/SS 
> Voldemort has already seen that Snape can be irritatingly 
> interfering, He could (for example) prevent Draco from wandering 
the 
> hallways at odd hours in all innocence if he is unaware Draco is 
on a 
> mission for Voldemort. 

Alla:

Wait, wait. Doesn't in Dung' scenario Voldemort WANTS Snape to 
interfere in order to test his loyalty? Am confused.

I am literally cutting my post short because I have to run. Sorry!

JMO,

Alla