[HPforGrownups] Trusting Snape (was: Is Snape good or evil?)

[Tammy Rizzo]

No: HPFGUIDX 148770

Tammy Rizzo:
>I *DO*, however, believe that DD would to   ANYTHING *to protect Harry*, 
>even give up his life, at whatever cost to  Snape or to any other teacher. 
>Whatever DD knew beforehand, whether he knew
>of the UV at all, or of only part of it, or of the entirety of it, when it
>came down to the actual moment on the Tower, DD showed what he was willing
>to do by using his last moment with a wand to immobilize Harry under the
>Invisibility Cloak, so that Harry couldn't do anything stupid and draw
>attention to himself.  DD put himself in front of Harry, in a sense, by
>ensuring that Harry couldn't reveal himself.

PJ: 
 
Ok,this arguement makes no sense to me.  Surely Dumbledore understood that 
once he was dead the spell on Harry would lift and Harry could then "do 
something stupid", cloak or not?  <snip>  Why would Dumbledore choose to
leave Harry in the presence of a 
child loving werewolf and several other DEs?  <snip>
  
Now Tammy:
 
Ahh, but DD wasn't leaving Harry in the presence of a child loving werewolf
and several other DEs.  He was leaving Harry in the hands of Snape, whom he
trusted completely, whether he was right or wrong to trust him so.  Also,
I'm convinced that DD, who has admitted to forgetting what it is like to be
young, most likely thought that Harry had learned not to waste the efforts
of those who have paid greatly to protect him.  Remember Lupin's dressing
Harry down in PoA, telling him that flitting over to Hogwarts while someone
was out to get him was not a worthy way to repay his parents' sacrifice on
his behalf, and how utterly lousy that thought made Harry feel?  It was the
ONLY thing that got through to him that he had been behaving stupidly.  I'm
sure that DD had become aware of that conversation, and had probably thought
that Harry had learned that particular lesson.  DD probably hoped that,
while Harry was immobilized and invisible, out of the line of fire, he would
come to realize that the best course of action would be to remain hidden
until it was safe.  Obviously, DD was wrong in that hope; that doesn't mean
that he was wrong to hope that.  Also just as obviously, he couldn't yell
out to Harry to stay hidden, which Harry probably would have struggled to
do, if DD had TOLD him to -- after all, he'd PROMISED to do what DD told
him.  DD made a major mistake with that situation, yes, but it is NOT out of
character for him to have acted as he did.
 
PJ again:
 
And what was Dumbledore going on about hiding Draco and his Mom if he'd 
planned to die there on the tower?   <snip>
 
Now Tammy:
 
I am firmly convinced that DD never PLANNED to die there on the Tower.
That's just how things turned out, given the situation at the time.  DD
probably was not aware when he made the offer of hiding Draco and Narcissa
that there were several DEs running through his school, coming to make sure
he died.  He had reassured Harry of the protections around the school before
they headed out to the cave, remember?  Yes, that was another major mistake
on DD's part, underestimating the plans and resources of his enemy, but it
was a reasonable mistake to make.  After all, DD had to tweak the school's
defences to even get Harry and himself in on brooms, only minutes before.
How could he have thought that DEs could have come in to harrass his school?
And he DID know more than Harry did, about almost everything, so it was a
reasonable assumption on his part to believe that he had more information
about Draco's plans than Harry did, and not unreasonable to try to assuage
Harry's misgivings by assuring him of his own superior knowledge and
understanding.  Wrong, as it turned out, but not unreasonable.
 
PJ:
 
Snape is now useless to the order and DDM!Snape or not, he is dead meat.  He

has the whole WW after him for killing his Headmaster.  Was that what 
Dumbledore had planned for him?   <snip>
  
Tammy:
 
I don't believe DD had planned anything of the sort for anyone.  However, I
do believe that, given the safety of the students on one hand, and the
future of one teacher on the other, he would have done anything to protect
his students, regardless of the price one teacher must be called upon to
pay.  I also firmly believe that DD trusted Snape to be able to pay whatever
price was required, for the sake of the students, just as DD himself was
willing to pay the ultimate price if required.  Whether DD was wrong or
right to trust Snape so, I am convinced that he DID put that much trust in
Snape.
 
PJ:
 
Seems to me that if Dumbledore planned this he made a real mess of things.  
Harry's determined to kill Snape, we don't know where Draco is for sure AND 
Harry has a small problem with horcruxes which Dumbledore never managed to 
teach him how to find and destroy.

If your theory is correct, I'd have to say Dumbledore blew it bigtime.

 Tammy:
 
I have never said that DD *planned* any of this -- I do not believe he did.
I cannot see DD *planning* to have Snape kill him, or *planning* to leave
Harry half-trained, at best, about Horcruxes, or *planning* to leave Snape
dangling on the dubious mercies of Voldemort after having killed his
Headmaster.  I believe, though, that, given the situation in which DD found
himself, and given that complete trust in Snape that he has told us about
over and over and over again, DD was not acting out of character to rely
upon that same trust when it came right down to it in the end.  He may have
been wrong, he may have been right, but he was not out of character to
believe in that trust that he was so certain of. At most, the cloest I can
see to DD *planning* anything like this would be to have given Snape similar
orders as he had given Harry before they left for the cave, that regardless
of what was asked of him, he'd DO it.  Those orders most likely came to
Snape many years ago, besides, and probably (if ever given) had a great deal
of bearing on DD's utter trust of Snape.  But that is, I believe, the whole
and entire extent of any *planning* for that Tower scene, or any situation
like it, that DD had ever made.
 
Now, yes, Snape's future is (apparently) screwed beyond repair, Harry is
(apparently) facing an impossible task, Draco is (apparently) still facing
Voldemort's wrath, and Dumbledore is (most assuredly) quite dead.  I'd call
that some big time consequences to some major mistakes on DD's part.
However, DD himself also admitted that his mistakes, when he makes them, are
quite huge.  I also believe that, all things considered, the outcome of the
Tower scene, while terrible in all ways, was considerably LESS terrible than
it could have been, and that Dumbledore's trust in Snape was not *entirely*
misplaced -- Snape *DID* manage to get the DEs out of Hogwarts without
further major injury to Harry or any other student or faculty.  Both
Dumbledore and Snape have had to pay huge prices for that outcome, but I do
believe that DD was *willing* to pay such a price, and that he trusted that
Snape, too, was able to pay such a price.
 
Tammy Rizzo
ms-tamany at rcn.com
 
 


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