[HPforGrownups] Trusting Snape (was: Is Snape good or evil?)

[P J]

No: HPFGUIDX 148780



Tammy:

>Ahh, but DD wasn't leaving Harry in the presence of a child loving werewolf
>and several other DEs.  He was leaving Harry in the hands of Snape, whom he
>trusted completely, whether he was right or wrong to trust him so.  Also,
>I'm convinced that DD, who has admitted to forgetting what it is like to be
>young, most likely thought that Harry had learned not to waste the efforts
>of those who have paid greatly to protect him.  <snip>DD made a major 
>mistake with that >situation, yes, but it is NOT out of
>character for him to have acted as he did.

PJ:

With each and every explanation Dumbledore just seems to get more and more 
stupid.  He trusted Snape, he *forgot* that Harry hasn't backed down from a 
fight since he was 11, he *forgot* that Harry and Snape hate and distrust 
each other and he *forgot* what Harry went through when Sirius died and how 
reckless and angry that made him...

Maybe the twists and turns made to show how DD wasn't hoodwinked by Snape 
and done in at the end by someone he mistakenly trusted  don't seem out of 
character to you but to me it makes it sound as though somewhere between 
book 5 and 6 Dumbledore has had a lobodomy!

Tammy:

>I am firmly convinced that DD never PLANNED to die there on the Tower.
>That's just how things turned out, given the situation at the time.

PJ:

Well finally!!  From there it's just a short hop to either ESE or OFH!Snape. 
  C'mon, you can do it!  lol


>DD probably was not aware when he made the offer of hiding Draco and 
>Narcissa
>that there were several DEs running through his school, coming to make sure
>he died.  He had reassured Harry of the protections around the school 
>before
>they headed out to the cave, remember?  Yes, that was another major mistake
>on DD's part, underestimating the plans and resources of his enemy, but it
>was a reasonable mistake to make.

PJ:

A reasonable mistake?  So we're back to moronic Dumbledore?   Why didn't DD 
just reach out and check the status of the school in Draco's mind?  Even 
Snape said Draco's skills at occlumency were crude at best.   Again, I think 
DD's being shortchanged.  I think DD expected Snape to come in, wands 
blazing, with several Order members in tow to help him out!  Instead Snape 
puts Flitwick out of commission and AK's him!  Not a good end to a 
supposedly great friendship.

Tammy:

>I don't believe DD had planned anything of the sort for anyone.  However, I
>do believe that, given the safety of the students on one hand, and the
>future of one teacher on the other, he would have done anything to protect
>his students, regardless of the price one teacher must be called upon to
>pay.

PJ:

But Dumbledore's death *didn't* make the students any safer!  Not that night 
and not for the future!  Two reasons more didn't get hurt or die in that 
fight was Harry's potion and the fact that most DE's seem to be the "gang 
who couldn't shoot straight".   Let's face it, either the kids are 
extrordinarily good at spells or the DE's skills are laughable!  That's 
twice a bunch of underaged Wizards have kicked big, bad Death Eater butt!!

Tammy:

>I have never said that DD *planned* any of this -- I do not believe he did.
>I cannot see DD *planning* to have Snape kill him, or *planning* to leave
>Harry half-trained, at best, about Horcruxes, or *planning* to leave Snape
>dangling on the dubious mercies of Voldemort after having killed his
>Headmaster.

PJ:

Good... neither do I.  I think he put his trust in the wrong Professor and 
things went to hell in a handbasket from there...

Tammy:

>Now, yes, Snape's future is (apparently) screwed beyond repair, Harry is
>(apparently) facing an impossible task, Draco is (apparently) still facing
>Voldemort's wrath, and Dumbledore is (most assuredly) quite dead.  I'd call
>that some big time consequences to some major mistakes on DD's part.
>However, DD himself also admitted that his mistakes, when he makes them, 
>are
>quite huge.

PJ:

Yes, he did.  And, imo, putting his trust in Snape was his largest mistake 
yet.   So much is left undone - Dumbledore's wisdom will be sorely missed.  
Especially by Harry.


Tammy:

>I also believe that, all things considered, the outcome of the
>Tower scene, while terrible in all ways, was considerably LESS terrible 
>than
>it could have been, and that Dumbledore's trust in Snape was not *entirely*
>misplaced -- Snape *DID* manage to get the DEs out of Hogwarts without
>further major injury to Harry or any other student or faculty.  Both
>Dumbledore and Snape have had to pay huge prices for that outcome, but I do
>believe that DD was *willing* to pay such a price, and that he trusted that
>Snape, too, was able to pay such a price.

I agree that Dumbledore wouldn't been ready to make that sacrifice if he'd 
thought it necessary but I don't see that it was.  Snape getting the DE's 
off the tower was fine but, in case you hadn't noticed, they were getting 
their heads handed to them inside the school!  So was Snape beating a hasty 
retreat because his team was losing badly already or was he trying to save 
the school?  My guess is Snape hates to lose and sooner or later everyone 
would hear who killed DD.  He wanted to be long gone by then!  Besides, both 
Snape and Draco had another apointment to keep and Snape didn't want to be 
late...


PJ