Is Snape good or evil? (longer)

[nrenka]

No: HPFGUIDX 148790

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> 
wrote:

> Pippin:
> I'm just asking how you think it would be more dramatically powerful
> for the reader to see Snape to gloat over his betrayal when the
> shock of his betrayal has had a chance to wear off rather than at 
> the moment when it took place. I'm just failing to think of an 
> example from literature or film where we see the betrayal in one 
> installment and get the gloating in the next installment, two years 
> later. 

There's always the BANG of JKR finally slamming the door on the 
question of guilt. ;)  (Not the BANG you wanted?)

Hmmm.  I can't say that I can call an example of high literary 
provenance to mind, but in all my years of reading delightfully 
trashy genre literature, I've run across at least one or two.  They 
usually do involve sudden exits via betrayal, and then later 
confrontation with the traitor (often standing next to the Evil 
Overlord; you'd think they knew that was a bad position...)

It really depends, for me, on the surrounding scenario and context, 
and none of us have done a good job at speculating on those kinds of 
specifics.  What connects it thematically for me is that Snape 
certainly does like to sit on some things, and pull them out at times 
which he thinks they're going to do some damage.  That's how I read 
the whole "See what a bastard your father and friends were" scene 
which he gives as punishment for the bathroom.  It certainly does 
nothing to help Harry realize 'what he's done wrong', but does smack 
of attempted gloating after the fact.  Is Snape the kind of person to 
bring past things up and use them when he thinks they're good 
weapons?  It's a scenario that works for me.  He gets out of there to 
consolidate this position now, but he has a powerful verbal weapon in 
the wings.

> I suppose you could see that as twisted, but the thing is, he could
> have used sectum sempra on Dumbledore, and if he's been longing
> to come out as a dark wizard, why not? 

Because he wants to kill him dead?  Because while Sectumsempra is 
nasty, AK is Unforgiveable--and JKR wants that image in our minds?  
There is a difference, it seems to me, between intending 
Sectumsempra "I cut you bloody", and intending Avada Kedavra "No, Mr. 
Bond, I expect you to die".
 
> Pippin:
> Um, "anguish" means intense mental or physical pain. And "pain"
> is what canon refers to.

I take the connotations of 'anguish', at least in this situation, to 
include some kind of regret or deep sorrow.  One is anguished 'over' 
something, one is usually angry 'at' something.  I know this is a 
fine splitting of hairs on English grammar and prepositions are 
notoriously idiomatic, but I'm trying to express why I see a 
difference here.  The problem with shadings like this is that even if 
you try not to speculate about the cause, it's going to sneak in 
because the cause determines the specific effect.

> I was not speculating about the cause, it could be rage, of course, 
> but Snape's been looking at Harry for six years, now -- clearly 
> it's what Harry said, not how he looked (which we don't even know) 
> that set Snape off.

Or it's just who Harry is; the right person flings out the comment, 
and he could have said almost anything--that's my perception.

> Pippin:
> But the whole "Snape isn't really remorseful, or he got remorse and
> changed his mind later" set of theories is an argument from absence.
> Beware  -- that  way lies vampires :)

Eh, one dead Headmaster isn't quite absence. :) 

If you admit the simple principle that there is now support for the 
proposition, trusting wholeheartedly in Dumbledore is a little 
dangerous and maybe even skeezy, almost everything else follows.  And 
if you don't, there are a lot of statements that get marked with 
the "Oh, not really serious/meaningful" label.  Possible, yes--I 
could be wrong in my application of all the hints about mistakes, 
etc.  But this is a position with ammo and support which it didn't 
have post-OotP, although the hints were picking up even there, 
that "Dumbledore says so and I trust him even if I don't know" was 
going to take some lumps.

-Nora is even now a little surprised to have found herself calling 
that one a year or so or maybe more post-OotP