"Stand aside, girl" and the End

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 145725

> SSSusan:
> I really, really like this possibility.  In spite of the fact that 
> I've long clung to LOLLIPOPS as a possible explanation for some of 
> Snape's actions, I've never been able to buy the "Voldy offered to 
> let her live as a reward for Snape" explanation for "Stand 
> aside."  As you noted, it just does NOT fit with the Voldy we
> know -- in particular with the person who instantly ordered the
> murder of Cedric as a mere "spare."  

Jen: I definitely think LOLLIPOPS can stand on its own without the 
particularly icky part about Snape asking Lily be saved for him ;). 
Even though I'm not a fan of this particular lolly, it seems Snape 
would feel much more remorse if he turned Lily over to Voldemort and 
there was no turning back, rather than having the out of asking him 
to save Lily. In fact, it would diminish Snape's change of heart if 
he was still asking for favors from Voldemort.

SSSusan:
> I also definitely don't think he UNDERestimated Lily's talents nor 
> her danger to him.  *Thrice* defying is a pretty significant
> history of peskiness.  Yes, he used the word "silly" but I don't 
> think he meant it as a way of showing he didn't think her even 
> worthy of consideration; I think he meant it as a general insult 
> (for her peskiness!) and perhaps as a means of showing his disdain 
> for the things she valued, compared to the things that REALLY 
> mattered in his opinion.

Jen: 'You silly girl' does seem to invalidate the idea Lily had a 
power that concerned Voldemort, but it's not that different from how 
he treats Harry: "I have nothing more to say to you, Potter...you 
have irked me for too often, for too long. AVADA KEDAVRA!" (OOTP, 
chap. 36, p. 813). Voldemort appears to be belittling Harry as just 
a bother, yet he's actually one of Voldemort's greatest concerns 
because of the prophecy. Pesky like his mom, yes, irksome, but 
*quite* concerning. I think Lily was the same in his eyes.

SSSuan:
> I think a lot of people think that Lily worked in the locked room 
> and that what is studied there is Love.  But I think her studying 
> death makes MORE sense.  Yes, she KNEW about love and understood
> its power, because she used it to protect Harry.  

Jen: Studying death definitely makes more sense for Voldemort's 
actions, and I like the idea Lily innately understood love magic 
rather than studied it. That way she and Harry are mirror images: 
Lily understood the power of love and compassion from the start as 
evidenced in the Pensieve scene, then she studied and overcame any 
fear of death. Harry had an innate understanding about self-
sacrifice and lacked fear of death from the beginning, but will need 
to internalize what Dumbledore has taught him, probably with post-
humous help from Lily. That scenario would also serve to make Lily a 
little less perfect in her characterization, if self-sacrifice was 
something she grew into through her studies of death and feeling the 
protective love of being a parent. Wouldn't it be neat for Harry to 
discover he inspired the courage within his mom to help her 
sacrifice herself? I'd be pulling out the tissue box over that one 
<g>.

Also, I hope information about Dumbledore will show that he had 
barriers to overcome in learning about love magic and not fearing 
death. Maybe this is where Grindelwald will come in (as well as for 
the plot information of Riddle learning more about horcruxes).

SSSusan:
> What makes more sense to me is this possibility -- that Voldy knew
> about Lily's work studying DEATH, which most definitely *was* on 
> his radar screen.  For this reason, perhaps, he was a little more 
> concerned about her, a little more worried about what she might be
> capable of?  Heck, maybe his plan was even to turn back to her
> after he'd eliminated Harry and see if he couldn't extract
> information from her about what she'd learned?  He might have 
> thought of her both as dangerous AND as potentially useful in his
> quest to avoid death and achieve immortality.  

Jen: Heck yeah, I like that idea. Wonder what they study in the Veil 
room? Hey, that just made me wonder if part of the reason Voldemort 
didn't want to go to the DOM to get the prophecy himself was fear of 
the Veil room? Bella said it was because he didn't want the MOM to 
know he was back and that makes strategic sense, but Voldemort is a 
man consumed by irrational fears and obsessions. He visits the DOM 
via Nagini and discovers the protection ain't that great--why 
doesn't he just use all his magical power to enter at night by 
stealth and grab the prophecy himself? Instead he develops this 
elaborate plan for Harry to take it. Hmmmm. 

SSSusan:
> I've long believed that what Harry would do to defeat Voldemort 
> would somehow involve sacrificial love -- the willingness to die 
> out of love for others.  (I've also always hoped that the mere 
> belief in this power and WILLINGNESS to take that action, to
> sacrifice himself, will prove to be sufficient and he won't 
> actually have to die... but that's just the "happy ending" person 
> in me talking.)  

Jen: It does seem all roads are leading this way. Dumbledore didn't 
spend Harry's sixth year preparing him for battle, he spent it 
helping Harry understand where Voldemort is strong and where he's 
weak. Dumbledore, at least, thinks Harry has everything he needs to 
defeat Voldemort just as he is. Like you said, Harry's ability to 
not care what happens to him while saving others is his strongest 
characteristic. I keep thinking of Mad-Eye in the movie GOF, 'play 
to your strengths' <g>.


SSSusan:
> Course, as Jen notes, Harry's going to have to get his mind off of
> killing Snape first. ;-)

Jen: Hee. The BIG task at hand, methinks. His hatred is making him 
weak.

Jen R., enjoying a day off to get caught up on posts.