Real child abuse/ Snape again/Draco as ferret /Love and Vengeance/Ending

Tue Jan 3 05:05:17 UTC 2006

No: HPFGUIDX 145782

> Alla wrote:
> 
> NO, I am not saying that torturing the  child is Okay, but I am 
> saying that making Draco bounce a few times is OK  within the 
> narrative? Why? Because  of whom he is. <snip> In RL  I would not 
advocate teacher using ANY physical punishments on 
> the child  like EVER.
> 
>  
> Julie now:
> But haven't you argued that JKR's Wizarding World is a reflection 
> of the real world, and that is why you consider Snape's actions  
toward
> Harry and Neville abusive? If different standards in the WW, i.e.  
within
> the story narrative, aren't a mitigating factor there, then why is 
it  okay 
> for
> Draco to be abused within the narrative if it wouldn't be okay in 
RL?

Alla:

Trying again  - OK not necessarily in the ethical sense, because as 
I said in my earlier post, I think that this scene with characters 
names crossed out definitely constitutes abuse, BUT OK as bad guy 
getting his dues - sort of another layer of interpretation if it 
makes any sense.

Hmmmm, maybe this way it will make more sense. I can 
interpret "bouncing ferret" scene several ways and doing it 
simultaneously:

1. Child abuse.

2. The funny and emotionally satisfactory scene because bad guy is 
getting punished.

I see both interpretations together, but the first one that jumps at 
me is bad guy being punished, that is why I won't care much that it 
is child abuse since I like to see bad guy being punished. But of 
course even if it IS funny to me, it does not stop being abuse, you 
know?

Julie: 
> And, yes, as readers we may get a bit of enjoyment at seeing Draco
> getting his just desserts here. But we can still know it was 
wrong,  and
> that Fake!Moody was abusing his position, just as we can know it's
> wrong of Snape to abuse his position with constant nasty comments
> to Harry and Neville. 

Alla:

ABSOLUTELY. It IS wrong, IMO. The only difference between your 
position and mine is that I am getting A LOT of enjoynment out of 
that scene DESPITE the fact that it was wrong.

Look, as I am saying in reply to Carol I picture Snape in the first 
lesson as "vicious dog" attacking an innocent kid who just came to 
the unknown world. I think it is SO wrong on SO many levels, BUT I 
also understand that this scene can be read as extremely enjoyable 
writing  and the person can ignore the wrongness OR don't think that 
it was wrong at all, because all that person sees is the  beauty of 
Snape's introductory speech about Potions or something like that.

I DO see that "bouncing ferret" scene is wrong, but to me it fades 
because all that I care about is that Draco got to suffer.

Personally, I cannot enjoy Snape's speech even though I think it IS 
beautifuly written, because all that I see is his harassment of 
Harry, same here I concentrate on " retribution aspect" of that 
scene, but am indifferent to other aspects.

> Carol responds:
<snip>
In part, the dream, like the scar incident, acts as
> a red herring to set Snape up as the apparent villain of the book, 
but
> it also shows, IMO, that Harry at least subconsciously distrusts 
Snape
> from the outset, before Snape has spoken a single word to Harry. 

Alla:

I completely disagree. I think that narrator's remark that "Snape 
had a gift to keep class quiet" shows  that Harry WAS open minded 
enough to see good parts of Snape teaching, but Snape was dead set 
IMO on alienating Harry from the start.

Carol:
The
> little question-and-answer session in the first Potions class, in
> which Snape demonstrates for whatever reason that "our new 
celebrity"
> doesn't know a bezoar from wolfbane, reinforces Harry's 
preconceptions
> about Snape. (No doubt it reinforces Snape's preconceptions about
> Harry as well.)

Alla:

Sorry, when I reread this scene I picture Snape as "vicious dog" 
barking at the innocent child. I don't think that Harry HAD any 
preconceptions about Snape to be reinforced and whatever 
preconceptions Snape had is a problem of emotionally challenged man, 
stuck in his past.

Carol:
 And, as I said
> earlier, Harry's distrust of him predates that class. He *does* 
have a
> clue who Snape is before that; he learns before the first class 
that
> Snape is the head of Slytherin House.

Alla:

Sorry, but the fact that Harry knows who Snape is does not mean IMO 
that he distrusts him. But who knows maybe it was a Seer dream.

> Alla:
> > I am sure that Harry will not kill Snape... BUT I also think 
that 
> > at some point in book 7, Snape WILL stand absolutely powerless 
at 
> > Harry's mercy AND I think Snape will hate it very much. That 
would 
> > be SUFFICIENT for me to see Snape powerless even for a brief 
> > moment in time ( for all six years of Harry being powerless in 
> > front of Snape)
> 
> SSSusan:
> Right.  This would be Harry experiencing mercy *not* at the same 
> moment that he wants vengeance, correct?  It's the desire for 
> vengeance occurring at the same time as an act of mercy or 
> forgiveness which seems totally incongruous to me.

Alla:

Oh, YES, YES of course. I told you earlier how much I loved your 
post, but I just wanted to be sure I am clear - I agree with you on 
other points as well, but I also do NOT think that Harry will be 
feeling mercy and vengeance at the same time. It will be a weird 
writing indeed, believability wise. I want to kill you, no , I 
changed my mind, and I want to forgive you now. :-)
I think Snape will get his  dues either prior to Harry forgiving 
him - if he is DD!M, OR afterwards ( dying from somebody else's hand 
OR by accident of fate) if he is evil.

So, we do agree that despite the fact that Love will be the main 
theme at the end, the bad guys ( whoever they are - here we differ a 
bit :-)) will be punished, but probably not from Harry's hand. :-)

Right?

> [Lupinlore in same thread, different post:]
> > If, on the other hand, he says "I refuse to raise my wand 
against 
> > you, O Voldemort, for despite that you have tormented me I 
refuse 
> > to sink to thy contrivance," I honestly think I'll have to be 
> > rushed to the hospital for treatment of life-threatening nausea.
> 
> 
> SSSusan:
> I think this goes back to what Alla said about faith in JKR's 
> writing.  She & I seem to have a good deal more faith in that than 
> you do.  For me, I see no reason to expect that an ending 
involving 
> love or forgiveness or mercy would necessarily involve sermonizing 
> or preaching.  

Alla:

Yep, yep, yep, Susan. Lupinlore, you KNOW that we agree on great 
deal of many things, but I just have to ask you WHAT caused you to 
be afraid that JKR's characters will talk the way you described? 
WHERE in canon JKR's characters EVER talked like that? I found the 
wording you described INCREDIBLY funny, but also SO not JKR's like. 
IMO of course.

I want the endings you described, absolutely. Harry protecting 
Wormtail by instinct will be nicely done indeed OR Harry protecting 
Snape by instinct will be nicely done too, IMO. That is indeed will 
be one of my favorite punishments of Snape, as I said many times - 
let him live and let Harry live of course and let Snape be in direct 
Life Debt to Harry.

But I am with SSSusan on this one. I may not LIKE some endings JKR 
will come up with, but I will not think that they are crappy 
writing. I have faith in the lady. :-) After all , during 6 books, 
she only disappointed me once and that was partial disappointment. I 
think it is pretty good score :) I think she could finish with 
gusto. ;) I will not be reading books again, if Harry is dead at the 
end, but I will still not call JKR a bad writer, personally.

JMO of course,

Alla