JKR a Death Eater? (was:Re: Hobbsian worlds; Crime & Punishment)

[ellecain]

No: HPFGUIDX 145870

Elyse's second post of the day, and one written with some qualms as 
to whether she is really eqipped to engage in this sort of 
discussion. 
Going forth, though I have to clarify here that I am in
total agreement with Betsy here, and she has expressed my views so 
eloquently that I have very little to add.

<raises glass to Betsy>

> > >>Betsy Hp:
> > > I'm really uncomfortable with that sort of philosophy.  Rather 
> > > than using rules fairly applied to everybody, some rules 
are    
> > > made for one sort of person and other rules are made for 
another 
> > > sort. So, Draco deserves to be physically tortured because 
of   
> > > who he is. But Neville should never be challenged because of 
who 
> > > he is.
>  
> > >>BAW:
> > Right.  Neville is a nice person.  Draco's a jerk.  

> Betsy Hp:
> Yes, but the argument is being made that challenging Neville is 
> abuse and torturing Draco is funny.  IOW, Neville is a human-being 
> and Draco is a little bit less than human.
> 
> > >>Lupinlore:
> > Yep, you are pretty much right on the money. The Potterverse is 
not
> > an impersonal one. Who you are matters an enormous amount.
> > <snip>
> > So, within the boundaries of the Potterverse, how "rules" 
are     
> > applied or not is very much influenced by the people 
involved.    
> > Lupin gets a pass, by and large, for his faults, as does 
Hagrid.   
> > Snape and Draco do not. Dumbledore gets a pass. Tom Riddle 
does    
> > not.
> > <snip>


Elyse: This reminds me of an old argument of 
Lupinlore's,called "Face it, there is a reward for being nice" when 
I had raised the objection that Snape and Hagrid were equally 
culpable with regards to their teaching methods but Hagrid was 
allowed to go free. The link to that post is:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/140293

(it might not work, I'm not sure of how to make a link yet - anyway 
the message number is up there)

I've quoted parts of it below, and I think this is what Lupinlore is 
saying again (correct me if I'm wrong Lupinlore). 

While I agree that law or the application of rules in an ideal 
universe, which we strive for, *should be* the same for all 
individuals (I think its time someone brought upa little antian 
philosophy)
when it comes to the real world, emotional empathy for one 
individual over another, acts as a bias/factor in the process. 


I'm not good at explaining so here is Lupinlore again in message 
140293:
"But, in the world of social, cultural, and personal
actions, nice people DO get breaks. That may not seem fair when
viewed objectively, but the personal and social world is not
objective. In the real world of real interactions, or even in the
routine world of fictional interactions, people are not lawyers
arguing from legal definitions of liability nor are they Jesuits
concerned with determining applications of universal moral principles
in complicated specific situations. In the real world, people are
emotional and instinctive creatures who naturally regard nice people
one way and mean people another way. It's just part of being human."

So while as Betsy says, there should be one and only one set of 
rules that apply to a student, whether he is Harry or Draco, whether 
he is Slytherin or Gryffindor, whether he is a Mugglelover or a 
Pureblood bigot, the fact remains that when Draco gets bounced 
around the dungeon floor, it is a little forgivable in people's 
eyes, because he is mean and prejudiced.
This does not of course make the action itself any less horrible.
It just *seems* a little less horrible because Draco had it coming 
for a long time.


> Betsy Hp:
> This is fascinating to me, and I think it really points to how 
> differently we approach the books.  

Elyse: Me too, this is fascinating. This is why I joined the group 
in the first place. All these different perspectives and 
interpretations!

Betsy:
Because basically, both 
> Lupinlore and Bruce are saying that JKR agrees with the Death 
Eater 
> philosophy -- some people are just inherently better and more 
> deserving than others.  She may not judge a person by their blood 
> (though there are a lot of blood ties in the story), but she does 
> see some people as "more equal than others", to pull in an 
Orwellian 
> phrase.

Elyse: I dont think Lupinlore ,at least ,is saying some people are 
better than others, just that their overall demeanour affects how 
the rules are applied to them. (I hope so anyway)


> Betsy:
> I think a lot of the people protesting the lack of morality in the 
> Potterverse, demonstrated most overtly by the severe anti-
Slytherin 
> bias seen within, would agree that JKR does think this way.  But 
HBP 
> has convinced me that JKR does not think this way.  She went to an 
> awful lot of trouble to give Draco a human side if she's really 
> working with the premise that Draco is less than human and so 
> deserves to suffer inhumane punishments.
> 
> Since I come at the books with the view point that JKR *is* a 
moral 
> person who is against bias and prejudice, I read them in an 
entirely 
> different light.  

Elyse: Yup, Betsy and I are on the same page alright. She gave Draco 
A LOT of sympathetic writing in this book. Not outright, but more in 
what Elkins called the "Hurt-Comfort" way, especially in that 
bathroom scene with Myrtle. She went to great lengths to present 
Draco's suffering as human. So even though she was the one who 
presented him as a pureblood mean bigot for 5 books, she showed us 
that his suffering is not funny.


> > >>Lupinlore:
> > <snip>
> > While Harry is waiting in DD's office, one of the 
former          
> > headmasters engages him in a benign conversationa 
and             
> > says "Dumbledore thinks very highly of you, as I'm sure you 
know. 
> > Oh yes, holds you in great esteem!" 
<snip>
That is its  not Harry's accomplishments  
> > that primarily impress Dumbledore, or Harry's achievements, or 
his 
> > adherence to a particular set of moral laws, it is who Harry 
is    
> > that DD finds important.

Elyse: Exactly! Because Harry is a human being above all else. 
A human being with capacity for compassion and reasoning and 
intellect, but above all with choice. And so is Draco.
That is why the ought to play by the same rules. 

It reminds me of a quote:
"A man should not be judged because of where he comes from, what he 
thinks, what he does, but who he is."
And he is a human being.


> 
> Betsy Hp:
> > Dumbledore is allowed to love Harry.  What he should not do is 
make 
> one set of rules for Harry and another for all the other students. 
> > may have fallen down a time or two.<snip>
But his love for Harry does not 
> prevent Dumbledore from seeing Draco as a human-being just as 
worthy 
> as Harry.  I think JKR felt Dumbledore did the right thing for 
Draco 
> on the tower.  And I think the scene on the tower is a good place 
to 
> look if we want to get a glimpse of JKR's moral beliefs.
> 
> Betsy Hp
>

Elyse: Hear Hear. Dumbledore actions on the tower with regards to 
Draco were what made him the greatest wizard of all time.

Elyse