[HPforGrownups] Re: First potions lesson/Harry getting special treatment and Draco's view of him

[Shaun Hately]

No: HPFGUIDX 145918

On 4 Jan 2006 at 21:44, dumbledore11214 wrote:

> Shaun:
> > OK - Harry didn't have that problem. He wasn't arrogant. But I 
> don't 
> > think it's unreasonable for Snape to have suspected he might have
> > been. Harry looks a lot like his father - when Snape saw him, he 
> must 
> > have noticed the resemblance, it would seem to me. And from what we
> > know of James, he was arrogant.  
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I think it is more than unreasonable for Snape to think that Harry may
> be just as arrogant as his father only because he LOOKS like his
> father. Snape saw Harry what for five minutes and determined that
> Harry is arrogant based on that? IMO it is a very bad behaviour from
> Snape, but see below.

Shaun:
 
Sorry - you've misunderstood me. Entirely my fault, looking at what I 
wrote I was not clear.

I don't think Snape decided that Harry might be arrogant based on his 
looks alone. I think that Snape had the same concerns about Harry 
that Dumbledore did - Dumbledore was very obviously concerned that 
Harry might grow up arrogant and that is part of the reason he placed 
him with the Dursleys - only part of the reason, but Dumbledore was 
aware right from the start that this was a risk.

"'A letter?' repeated Professor McGonagall faintly, sitting back
down on the wall. 'Really, Dumbledore, you think you can explain all
this in a letter? These people will never understand him! He'll be
famous - a legend - I wouldn't be surprised if today was known
as Harry Potter day in the future - there will be books written
about Harry - every child in our world will know his name!'

'Exactly,' said Dumbledore, looking very seriously over the
top of his half-moon glasses. 'It would be enough to turn any boy's
head. Famous before he can walk and talk! Famous for something he
won't even remember! Can't you see how much better off he'll be,
growing up away from all that until he's ready to take it?'"

(PS, p15-16)

If Dumbledore was aware of this as a risk, then it's perfectly 
reasonable for Snape to be aware of it as well. It's not a difficult 
concept at all - and it's especially not a difficult concept for 
someone raised in the Wizarding World who has seen, first hand, the 
sense of absolute entitlement that some Pureblood wizards feel.

And Snape does decide, rightly or wrongly, that Harry is arrogant.

"'So,' he said, straightening up again. 'Everyone from the Minister 
of Magic downward has been trying to keep famous Harry Potter safe 
from Sirius Black. But famous Harry Potter is a law unto himself Let 
the ordinary people worry about his safety! Famous Harry Potter goes 
where he wants to, with no thought for the consequences.  

Harry stayed silent. Snape was trying to provoke him into telling the 
truth. He wasn't going to do it. Snape had no proof - yet.  

'How extraordinarily like your father you are, Potter,' Snape said 
suddenly, his eyes glinting. 'He too was exceedingly arrogant. A 
small amount of talent on the Quidditch field made him think he was a 
cut above the rest of us too. Strutting around the place with his 
friends and admirers... The resemblance between you is uncanny.'"  

(PoA, p209)

I suppose my point is that I think Snape has every reason to believe 
Harry might have been arrogant at the start of Philosopher's Stone - 
Dumbledore knew the risk, the risk was real. How much Snape knew 
about the steps Dumbledore had taken to try and ensure this didn't 
happen is unknown in my view. I don't think it's an unreasonable 
assumption, though.

So as Snape encountered Harry, he was looking for signs that he was 
arrogant - as his father had been. And what he sees is a boy very 
like his father. And we know his father to have been arrogant - in 
Snape's judgement certainly.

Is Snape right to assume that Harry is as arrogant as his father, 
just because he seems like him. No. *But* Snape was bullied by James -
 to me that seems absolutely obvious. As someone who experience 
significant bullying at school, myself, I can say that I hope I never 
wind up teaching the son of one of the boys who bullied me badly, 
especially if he looked like his father. Because while I would, I 
hope, do my best to treat him fairly and separately from his father, 
I'm honestly not sure that I could be certain I wouldn't find it very 
hard not to see the father in the son. Snape is wrong. But I can 
understand why he may have felt that he was right.

And it's also possible - possible as speculation, there's no way 
proof for this - that Snape has heard at least one report that may 
have lead him to believe that Harry is arrogant. A report from Draco 
Malfoy.

Consider Malfoy's contact with Harry up until this first lesson. 
Malfoy has, basically, met Harry twice that we know of (some further 
contact in some classes prior to potions seems likely, I think as 
well, but we have no details on that).

Initially meets Draco in Madam Malkins, where, except for one moment 
when he defends Hagrid, he more or less goes along with Draco's 
pureblook ideology. Now, I am not, in any way, blaming Harry for that 
- at the time he doesn't have the knowledge he needs to reasonaly 
respond to Malfoy. But given his lack of response, I think Draco 
quite reasonably could have assumed that Harry shares his views. 
Especially as Harry confirms that his parents were a witch and 
wizard.

Draco's next contact with Harry is on the train, where he finds Harry 
sitting with Ron Weasley - a pureblood, albeit not a very high class 
one in Draco's view. But a pureblood nonetheless.

And Draco acknowledges Ron's blood status but seeks to claim a 
heirarchy:

"'You'll soon find out some wizarding families are much better than 
others, Potter. Yo don't want to go making friends with the wrong 
sort. I can help you there.'

He held out his hand to shake Harry's, but Harry didn't take it.

'I think I can tell who the wrong sort are for myself, thanks,' he 
said coolly."

(PS, p81).

Just for a moment consider what has happened through Draco's eyes. 
He's met Harry at Madam Malkins and he's been reasonably friendly to 
him, and talked to him, more or less as an equal - even though to 
begin with he doesn't even know if Harry is pureblood or not 
(although he does assume he is). Harry has not objected to his 
pureblood statements - except, as I say, for briefly defending 
Hagrid. Then, on the train, Draco seeks out Harry and discovers him 
in a compartment with a pureblood wizard - a Weasley, but a pureblood 
none the less. And Draco offers him friendship.

And Harry rejects it in a way that really does seem to indicate that 
he sees himself as superior to Draco.

And, I would say that he does - but we can assume that his sense of 
superiority comes from his assessment of Draco's character. To Draco, 
it may seem quite different though - that Potter has decided he is 
somehow superior to the Malfoys - and in Draco's world, virtually 
nobody is superior to the Malfoys. Honestly, given what Draco sees, 
and coloured by his experiences, I think that to him, Harry does 
across as exceedingly arrogant in that encounter on the train. As 
feeling superior to all wizards.

If Draco passed on this information to Snape, deliberately or 
otherwise. it's yet another reason why Snape might have felt that 
Harry was likely arrogant.

The fact Harry looks like his father is just one little issue - among 
others - that for me, do build up to a reasonable assumption by Snape 
that Harry might be arrogant. The fact he resembles his father is 
logically minor - but psychologically may be quite important in 
Snape's assessment.

> Shaun: 
> > Dumbledore knew the risks Harry could become arrogant - and took
> > steps to try and limit the chances of that happening, but keeping 
> him 
> > away from the Wizarding World - so I don't think it's unreasonable
> > for Snape to have considered it a possibility as well. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I think it is a VERY telling that in the later books the reason that
> Harry should stay away from WW because he may become arrogant is not
> mentioned ( DD says something about " not a pampered little prince" in
> OOP, but I think he showed their a deepest regret that Harry did not
> get a bit of pampering there  and in HBP he sticks to blood protection
> and blood protection only). I believe that JKR did not intend to
> convey that message at all, BUT even if DD did intend to do it, he was
> sort of involved in Harry's life. Snape as far as we know was not and
> to make such conclusion based on five minutes of looking at Harry
> seems arrogant at best and very hateful at the most to me. IMO of
> course.

Shaun:

As I have said above, I don't really assume that Snape just based 
this assessment on five minutes of looking at Harry. I think he 
started with a reasonable assumption that the 'Boy Who Lived' might 
well have wound up arrogant and he's moving to address that (the 
teachers who did this to me didn't know if I was arrogant or not - 
they had never met me - but in my case, their assumption had some 
validity), and I think he may also have possibly had more information 
than many people suppose, if he'd heard anything from Draco (either 
directly, or indirectly - perhaps overhearing Draco talking to 
someone else - remember Harry is a celebrity, and Draco does seem to 
have had more contact with him than anyone else in Slytherin and I 
think Draco is the type to boast about his contact to anyone 
interested).  

As for the idea that Dumbledore's desire for Harry not to grow up 
spoilt not being mentioned in the later books - honestly I can't see 
any reason to suppose it would be. There's no real scope for 
discussing it until the end of Order of the Phoenix where Dumbledore 
explains things. We don't see conferences on how Harry Potter is 
being raised, or anything. The only Wizarding family Harry spend any 
time with, really, is the Weasley's - and Mr and Mrs Weasley seem to 
me, for the most part, to go out of their way not to treat Harry as 
anything particularly special. Or... more accurately, I think they 
treat him in the most special way they really could - almost as one 
of their family. But while that is very special indeed, it's not a 
way to turn his head.

The discussion of why Dumbledore did what he did really only comes up 
at the end of Order of the Phoenix. Until that time, he hasn't 
explained everything to Harry - so the fact this desire that Harry 
not grow up arrogant hasn't been mentioned since early in 
Philosopher's Stone, doesn't strike me as at all surprising or 
telling.

And he only addresses it in passing at the end of Order of the 
Phoenix, as this issue is much less important than the fact of 
keeping Harry alive. But he is glad that Harry isn't a 'pampered 
little prince' - I certainly agree that he thinks Harry should have 
been treated better than he was. But that's not incompatible. He 
didn't want Harry raised to believe he was some sort of Messiah. But 
he didn't want him raised to believe he was worthless either. What he 
hoped for (and I think he may have known even from the start that 
this wasn't likely) was for Harry to be raised as an ordinary boy. 
Not pampered, not spoiled... but there's nothing wrong with love.

> Shaun:
> Yes, he's 
> > wrong... but if he'd been right... then maybe that first class 
> could 
> > have been a much more positive experience for Harry, long term, 
> than 
> > it actually is.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> The point to me is he WAS wrong and we seem to agree on it, right? I
> don't think Snape had any right to act upon it without confirming his
> suspicions first.

Shaun:

Yes, he was wrong - and I agree that Snape acted inappropriately, 
because he was wrong about Harry. And I do think he should have taken 
more time and more care to work out what Harry was really like.

*But* it's easy to say that, and much harder to do it. A person will 
only take such care *if* they believe they are likely to be wrong. If 
Snape had somehow come to the conclusion that he was right (erroneous 
though that conclusion would have been), he wouldn't have seen a need 
for further investigation. He'd have been wrong in that - but people 
do make mistakes sometimes, we cannot expect perfection.

My point is simply that there may be circumstances in which Snape's 
behaviour in that first potions class makes a lot more sense than in 
other circumstances. If he really believed Harry was likely to be 
highly arrogant and believe he was superior to others (and I can 
understand such an erroneous belief) that is quite different from if 
he was just being nasty without any reason at all.  

Alla:
 
> Besides, to me it is obvious that the main lasting damage which Snape
> did in this lesson was setting Harry up to mistrust him and dislike
> him AND eventually that lead to Occlumency disaster in their fifth
> year,IMO.
>
> Sure Harry did not practice hard enough, BUT there is no way IMO that
> Harry was able to ever trust Snape after what he did to him during
> five years and that lesson IMO was a start of all that.
> 
> I think Snape did horrendous damage here, personally.

Shaun:

I'm afraid I disagree with this, quite strongly - and here I am 
writing as someone who, at the age of 12 was very severely 
emotionally damaged by teachers (after having suffered more minor 
damage in the years before that). And that left me in a situation 
where I had a very good reason not to trust teachers. And for a long 
while, I did not.

But the primary reason I didn't, is that I chose not to. It was my 
choice not to trust teachers anymore after my year of hell. 
Eventually, though, I became convinced that the only way to move 
beyond that was to give them another chance - and decide to trust 
them again. And when that happened, I discovered that most were 
trustworthy.

My point is that while I would certainly agree that it's hard for 
Harry to trust Snape during those occlumency lessons, maybe even too 
hard, I don't think Harry even tried. I don't think he made the 
effort. Now, I don't blame him for that - he's only fifteen and at 
fifteen it's pretty hard to expect a kid to do that. But the fact 
remains that he didn't try. He could have tried. Tried and failed - 
very possibly. But you can't succeed if you don't try - and Harry had 
the power to make more of an effort than he did.

Did Snape damage the chances that Harry could trust him? Yes, he 
absolutely, positively did. Just as teachers I had damaged my ability 
to trust them. It happens.

But, basically, you have to decide to move beyond that. You can let 
the people who damaged your ability to trust do it for all time, or 
you can decide to put that behind you.

Harry's refusal to try and trust Snape during the Occlumency lessons 
didn't hurt Snape - it only hurt Harry. It was utterly 
counterproductive.

The fact is, Snape is a perfect example of someone who has let 
childhood bitterness - no matter how justified it might have been at 
the time - cloud his life forever.

If Harry makes the same mistake... well, the only person that hurts 
is Harry.     

No, maybe he wouldn't have been able to overcome this - it's asking a 
lot of a fifteen year old child (and, no, I didn't manage it that 
young myself - I was into my twenties before I was able to come close 
to reconciling my feelings of rage and anger about the teachers who'd 
hurt me - it took me years even after I started trying), but he 
doesn't even try in my view. At least not at first. I do think we 
start to see some changes during the Occlumency lessons, but 
unfortunately Harry's invasion of Snape's privacy wrecked that (and 
after that I see the same problem in reverse - Snape should have been 
able to accept that Harry did something very stupid and wrong (and I 
think Harry did - he was utterly in the wrong on that occasion) and 
moved beyond that. And Snape is an adult - and, furthermore, Snape is 
a teacher. He should have been able to do that. At the very least, he 
should have informed Dumbledore that an insurmountable issue had 
arisen.  

What Snape did to Harry in that first lesson was wrong. A lot of what 
Snape has done to Harry over the years is wrong. 

I don't doubt that at all.  

My question though is what is his motivation for what he does? I 
think that is a very open question. Snape, it seems to me, misjudges 
Harry. While we can condemn that misjudgement, perhaps, in itself, I 
think that we should try and consider it in trying to work out why 
Snape does what he does. His beliefs about Harry, true or false, 
justified or unjustified, can place his behaviour in a different 
light. 

I suppose the question is, in my view, is did Snape make one big 
misjudgement about Harry's personality and character to begin with, 
and all his treatment of Harry stems from that initial mistake? Or 
has Snape instead made dozens and dozens of smaller misjudgements 
over the years? Or is he just mean and horrible? 

I don't think he's just mean and horrible. I don't think things are 
that simple. I think, as I have said before, that Snape's teaching 
methods are generally speaking not invalid (though at the same time, 
not necessarily best practice). Harry does seem to me a special case.

So... I think the more likely scenarios are the first two - either 
one big misjudgement that has coloured everything since, or many, 
many smaller misjudgements.

If there was a big initial mistake, it seems to me that it happened 
either prior to that potion lesson or just as it started. And if it 
does exist, I would say it most likely comes from Snape having judged 
Harry to be arrogant.

And, while I don't think it was true at the time, frankly, I think 
that Harry has behaved in a manner that served to reinforce that over 
the years. The fact is, Harry does ignore rules if they don't suit 
him - sometimes for good reason. Sometimes not (slipping into 
Hogsmeade in Prisoner of Azkaban - even Lupin takes him to task for 
that one). He does have a very high opinion of himself in some ways - 
frankly as time goes on, I think Harry does become a little arrogant. 
Considering what he's achieved, this isn't surprising - *but* it's 
certainly there for someone who is looking for signs of arrogance to 
see.

Basically, I think that back at the start, Snape may have made a 
single error of judgement (and a not totally unreasonable one) - and 
that has coloured things ever since. While that is not a good 
situation, and is not particularly to his credit, it's a different 
situation from one in which he is just nasty, or cruel, or mean.

People have talked, in recent days, about how some of us see the 
Bouncing Ferret incident differently because of the way we see Draco.

Well, it seems to me that Snape sees Harry quite differently from the 
rest of us. And, of course, that affects his views.

Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought
Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html
(ISTJ)       | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 
"You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one
thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the 
facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be 
uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that 
need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil
Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia