Breaking rules/House points Was:Re: First potions lesson/Harry getting special t

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 145964

> > KJ writes:
<snip>
> > Yes, the Trio and 
> > Neville deserved the points. I don't think anyone
> > has an argument with 
> > that. 
> 
> Chris:
> I do.  It was extremely unfair. DD awarded points and
> knowingly admitted that the trio were out of bounds
> and breaking the rules.  This would send a terrible
> message to the other houses that they could break the
> rules.  

Annemehr:
First of all, I have no quibble at all with people who are unhappy
with the *way* the final points were awarded.  I'm only replying to
Chris's points about whether they were earned at all.

So, to Chris's first point. Actually, I think that was very
deliberately part of the intended message: that, given a similar
(apparent) emergency, the other students *can* break the rules.  Of
course, you are quite right that it is perfectly possible to argue
with that.


Chris:
> First the cloak, although technically legal in
> Hogwarts, was in bad taste.  DD told Harry after the
> mirror incident that he should not be wandering out
> during off hours (I don't have the book in front of
> me).  Any other student would have been punished (like
> Draco later in the book) and any other teacher would
> have done the punishing.  

Annemehr:
Actually, he only told Harry not to look for the mirror again -- but
that if he ever did run across it again, he'd be prepared.  Then he
told Harry to put "that admirable cloak" back on and go to bed. 
There's no hint in that passage of DD saying that Harry ought not to
have used the cloak to find the mirror at night.  In fact, in the note
pinned to it when it was a Christmas gift, DD had written "use it well."


Chris:
> Second, Filch, Snape and Quirell ran to the library to
> find the student out of bed and I received the
> impression that it was extremely urgent, more urgent
> then the loyalties of Quirell. (I may be mixing up the
> movie here).


Annemehr:
Hard to say if it was urgent -- they both do love to catch students in
violations and punish them (for one Snape example, see him blasting
rosebushes during the Yule Ball).  It was only Filch and Snape (both
of the overheard conversations with Quirrell acutally happened in the
daytime), but apparently Snape had told Filch to inform him if he
caught anyone wandering the corridors at night.  Harry thinks Filch
and Snape must be five floors above the kitchens at this point, so
it's possible, if Harry miscounted, that they are on the third floor
where the forbidden corridor is (remembering that in Britain, the
first floor is one storey above the ground floor, which is where the
Entrance Hall is, and the kitchens are on the floor below the ground
floor) -- but it's more likely they're on the fourth floor.

  
Chris:
> Third, we don't know if Hagrid told DD that the trio
> knew of Fluffy or that they knew how to pass him.  We
> also do not know if Hagrid told DD that an unknown
> person knew of how to pass Fluffy.  If Hagrid kept
> this to himself, he was extremely irresponsible. If he
> did tell DD any of it, DD then allowed the events to
> take place by not changing the traps.  These things
> are known as negligence in our world and are
> prosicutable the same as the crime that was committed.


Annemehr:
Given that the "traps" were apparently quite passable by a fully
qualified wizard with any sense (or, alternatively, three first year
students), there has been what I think is sound speculation that the
first six of them were there to slow one down and most likely to be an
alarm for DD that someone was passing them ("No sooner had I reached
London than *it became clear to me* that the place I should be was the
one I had just left"). If that is true, then the fact that Hagrid told
someone the secret to passing Fluffy would not have mattered much.
Given the difference in the way Hagrid talks about it before and after
the kids' trip down the trapdoor it's clear he didn't realise the
significance of what he'd done until afterward.


Chris:
> Finally, the trio snuck out after hours.

Annemehr:
Again, condoned (by DD and JKR) in a good cause.  The DA is another
example (not after hours, but definitely against the rules).


Chris:
> Also, the reasons DD gave for
> awarding the points was pathetic: 'Cool use of
> intellect', 'the best game of chess Hogwarts has ever
> seen', 'Pure Love'.  I question I ask is who saw all
> these to know?

Annemehr (with benefit of book):
Actually, it was "cool use of logic in the face of fire," "the best
game of chess Hogwarts has seen in many years," and "pure nerve and
outstanding courage."  How did DD know? Well, the trio apparently told
him, not to mention the fact that they obviously did get through them,
as Harry was found in the Mirror room.

Chris:
> The only points I think that were deserved was
> Neville's, but even then, why should he be rewarded
> for doing what is right unless everyone is awarded the
> same.

Annemehr:
*All* house points are awarded for doing what's right, and what
Neville did there was not only right, but not easy.

Indulge me for ending with a bit of an old post of mine to illustrate
why house points may, in the books, start out with so much
significance (as in many a British school story) and then gradually
fade off the stage:

[from http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/58817 ]
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> **Koticzka:
> I just cannot resist. Sacrifices made by Harry are cheapened by any
sort of
> prize, like Dumbledore's points for the Gryffindors. That might not
change
> Harry's attitude, or make the choice less painful. For the reader,
though,
> it might change a lot, especially when the reader is not eager or
conscious
> enough to consider circumstances in the world where the prize will
not be
> given. How can we talk of any kind of sacrifices then?

Annemehr:
I never really thought much about those end-of-the-year points before,
and even though I read the posts about them, I was never very worked
up about it, but now I wonder if you haven't come upon another theme
of the series.

First, why the point system at all (discussed already at greater
length)? Why give this type of reward for *anything* the students do?
Shouldn't they do their schoolwork for the sake of learning, not for
House Points? Shouldn't they be well behaved because it's right?
Shouldn't they even play Quidditch for the sake of the sport and even
just the Quidditch cup without regard to the House Cup?

I suppose the answer is that the young people need an extra, visible
incentive to do what's right: study, play well, condsider how your
actions affect other people (i.e. the rest of your House).

However, you are right that the points Harry et al get at the end of
PS/SS and CoS seem to be disconnected, somehow, with the reasons for
their heroic actions. What does the House Cup have to do with saving
Ginny Weasley's life?

Ah, but maybe JKR agrees with you! Look what happens next.

In PoA, Pettigrew is spared and Sirius and Buckbeak are saved, and
Dumbledore holds these actions in high esteem ("Why so miserable,
Harry?" he said quietly. "You shold be very proud of yourself after
last night." PoA, ch. 22). Harry does not receive any points for any
of this. Of course, he can't really, as it is all a secret, but
neither do points seem to matter at all to either Harry or Dumbledore.
Gryffindor does win the House Cup because of Quidditch anyway, so you
hardly notice the departure from the first two books.

Okay, so now consider GoF. Harry "wins" the TWT and the thousand
Galleons prize money. Of course he shouldn't have even been in the
tournament, and he had help with the tasks (as did all the champions),
but who would seriously say he didn't earn the prize? And yet he is,
understandably, horrified by it. He has seen murder done, has been
tortured and horribly used and nearly murdered himself, and Fudge
gives him 1000 Galleons?

I would be surprised if House Points are ever again a driving force
for Harry.
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Annemehr