Ginny in HBP and a little SHIP Harry/Ginny WAS: Re: First potions lesson

[kchuplis]

No: HPFGUIDX 145989

> Magpie:
> 
>  Actually, 
> I tend to participate in fandoms where when I have something to work 
> out.  If I'm just happy with a book there's less to say for me.  

I just find that if a book I'm reading disturbs me enough to drop it, I'm probably not 
going to be following it very long. We definitely approach things differently.

> Magpie:
> 
 
> I wish I was you in thinking that little connector was 
> particularly well done.  It was a serious eye-roller for me.  

It would have been an eyeroller if Harry had had a single clue at the moment it 
happened what it meant. He was, however, completely oblivious. 


> 
> Magpie:
> 
> Well, it's commented on in the text (Oh, is that why she's 
> different?  Because she talks now? ) so I don't think I have to 
> prove it was there.  

That's it? "Oh, is that why she's different? (clarification) Because she talks now?" I just 
don't see that as a huge change in personality. It's certainly explained. And well, I 
know that I didn't act the same at 13 or 14 as I did at 9,10,11 years old. In fact, I 
clearly remember my mother telling me I was the perfect child until I turned 14. When 
I asked her what she meant, she told me I had begun questioning things, arguing and 
generally, well, forming my own opinions. A little thing called hormones and growth I 
suppose, but like Ginny and millions of other kids at that age, we suddenly develop in 
many ways. 

>Her speech pattern changes significantly 
> between her last appearance in GoF and her first appearance in 
> OotP.  I've written more extensively about those two scenes 
> comparing the two and breaking it down line by line to show the 
> different personality put across in the two scenes, but I don't 
> think this is the place for that.  

Why not? Just point me to it if it was in another thread. This is a forum to discuss the 
novels of JKR, which would include character development and the authors techniques 
in presenting that. I think it's the perfect place for it. How does her speech change? 
Other than that she has 4 years of school, learning, exposure to other students and 
teachers. I mean, you make it sound as though she has suddenly changed from using 
the queen's English to gang slang. What changed?

>Suffice to say I could tell from 
> her very first line in OotP that Ginny's going to be different in 
> this book and was not wrong--and since this is confirmed within the 
> text by Harry noticing she seems different 

again, she's older, she's no longer obsessed by a crush, she talks. She's being natural 
around Harry after having spent summers in his presence. This is wierd how?

>and fandom discussing it 
> and the author afaik confirming that yes, she's not shy around him 
> any more so now he's seeing the "real her" for the first time I see 
> no reason to not accept that the change isn't there, 

But how is that odd? How does this cause the comments I've seen? It seems like 
natural growth and development to me. I'd really appreaciate some examples of it 
being out of place or reason to cause the threads I've seen.

>that the author 
> didn't do it on purpose.  

It's called character development. I'm afraid I wouldn't think much of characters that 
didn't go somewhere.

>I just can't reconcile the two 
> characters.  In fact, when people reconcile them for me they often 
> seem to go against what the author seems to be admittedly going for 
> and suggest the reasons for the change.  Rowling says the hint is 
> Ron saying Ginny "never shuts up" in CoS, but HBP Ginny isn't a 
> chatterbox either.  She rarely speaks more than she needs to.

Still not seeing it. She's not shy in the later books with a witty or barbed comment. 
Ron's "never shuts up" comment not withstanding, I'm sure he didn't mean she 
literally never shut up. 

> 
> Basically, imagine if in the next book Neville suddenly developed 
> Zach Smith's personality. That's what reading OotP is like for me 
> with Ginny.  

Because she talks to Harry and he noticed it? It's as though she became Lavender 
Brown? Errr. Not seeing it. Please provide some scenes where she acts completely 
different as to be two different personalities entirely.

>I understand that she's supposed to be the same girl 
> and I accept it because to do otherwise is to pointlessly fight it, 
> but this particular trick in canon doesn't work for me at all and I 
> figure I might as well say that.

Cool. Please provide some canon showing this angle of thought.

kchuplis


 Betsy Hp:

> Speaking for myself, I ain't reading it for the romance. <g>  
> Frankly, I think JKR places very little importance on the romance 
> aspect of the story and when she writes about it, prefers to do so 
> in a comedic way.  (The Bill/Fluer and Ron/Lavender romances were 
> much more realistic and interesting to my mind, and they read like 
> they'd been written more naturally, IMO.)

kchuplis:

Interesting, because if there was one relationship presented so far that seemed forced 
it was the Ron/Lavender one. I know, delierate but extremely annoying and carried 
maybe a tad far ('Won-Won' was, just a little much for me.) But I totally agree that the 
romance is not the point but the relationships are, and that's why I wanted to pursue 
understanding people in this (what seems like) big hue and cry about Ginny.

>Now I do think 
> this particular version of *Ginny* came out of nowhere.  So while I 
> enjoyed their first kiss I didn't much enjoy Ginny.  A bit too 
> spunky, sparkley, "pretty little princess in combat boots" for me.
> 

Well, that's just not caring for that personality. My question is why is it a version 1 of 
Ginny and version 2 and what is the canon that supports that? 

> Betsy Hp:
> Oh, yeah, Ginny is superfun!  Life of the party!  Soul of the 
> quidditch team!  Righter of wrongs!  Scurge of that ass-hat, Zach 
> Smith! (Damn him and his questions!)  Favorite of Slughorn!  Darling 
> of the twins!  And just to cement her super-cool status -- itty 
> bitty sister from hell to Ron.  

This just sounds, again, like you just don't like that personality. That's fine. I actually 
didn't see her as quite that er.....caricaturized, but OK. She just seems definitely 
Weasleyish to me. I mean, Fred and George weren't shrinking flowers, Percy is as big a 
prat as they are goofs. All of them seem to have strong opinions. None of them are 
stupid (actually, Ron seems to have the least grey matter of all the Weasley's. Poor 
kid.) Not one of them doesn't seem to have a pretty sharp mouth. OK, she isn't a 
dweeb. Did we expect her to be? That's my question. Where are the assertions that 
Ginny is "changed"?

> Betsy Hp:
> A flaw or two might have been nice.  An acknowledged flaw, anyway. 

She's lippy. That's probably a flaw in many ways. We don't see her enough in classes 
to know how teachers perceive her. (Which is completely understandable since the 
books are from Harry's POV and she is a year younger). She's certainly presented as 
being slightly flirty after puberty.
 
> She does have an enormous chip on her shoulder and can go from quiet 
> to raging fury in sixty seconds, but I get the sense that's supposed 
> to be a plus in JKR's eyes.  

Well, again, it seems to be a Weasley trait. We've seen Ron do it a million times. But 
somehow that's wrong in Ginny? Personally, it's more of a "typical redhead" 
characerization. And quite honestly, every since I hit puberty, I have been known, 
myself to go go from calm to fury in seconds. Not sure about the chip on her 
shoulder. About what? Where do you see this described? Well, other than with Ron. I 
don't know about you, but if MY brother called me "loose" in front of both my 
boyfriend and close family friend (who I really did once harbor a crush on and 
probably still has quite a standing in my eyes even if I am not pursuing that) I'd 
probably put his eye out and I wouldn't forgive it easily. It doesn't seem glorified to 
me, just .... well realistic. Was she supposed to pat Ron on the head? 

I guess the other spot is the quidditch field. Well, *I* agreed with her. McLaggen 
*was* being a prat. 

>(If it's a left over Voldemort piece 
> and it turns out her personality changes were from her brush with a 
> horcrux I will take everything I said about her and JKR's handling 
> of her back.  I will also be thrilled beyond measure.  But I fear 
> this will not happen.)

(shudder. I certainly hope not.)

> Betsy Hp:
> She goes from ho-hum about quidditch in GoF to super quidditch 
> genius.  She goes from amused from afar by the twins to more twin 
> than the twins.  And she goes from loving Ron to hating him.  I've 
> catalogued all this before here:
> 

Eh, I still don't see it. We didn't really see enough of her to know *what* she was 
about quidditch. As far as loving Ron to hating him, see the above. Man, I must have 
grown up completely strange. I developed new interests, my own independence, had 
raging arguments with my siblings (still do, well, to a point, I live far away from them 
now) but still love them and this all got worse when, what do you know, I turned 14. 
(My mom was right, I wasn't nearly as obnoxious previously).

> I know not everyone agrees that Ginny was handled badly, but those 
> of who do think she was aren't basing it on nothing.

I'd still like to see some real canon presented on the matter. The arguments when you 
hit OoTP in  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/144816
seem largely based on perception and not what was literally written. You *wanted* to 
see something different with Ginny but IMO what was presented was not odd, or bad 
writing or out of step with a develping personality. Those are two different things. 

Because she was laughing at Bill and Charlie instead of cheering? I just don't see this 
being a huge difference. Laughing/cheering not seeing a big difference here. So 
Ginny doesn't push her way into quidditch talk....she's two years younger, she may 
not have fully developed her interest in it yet. I'm certain those two summers between 
where she was able to join in playing caused a difference. Two years ago, I didn't 
know much about horse racing and now I hold my own in fantasy contests with 
seasoned handicappers. I learned. 

Sorry guys, but so far, I'm not seeing canon supported arguments from anyone on a 
bad case of character development on the part of JKR with Ginny Weasley. Guess I'm 
just being dim.

kchuplis