Breaking rules/House points Was:Re: First potions lesson/Harry getting special t

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 146056

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki <xmezumiiru at y...>
wrote:
 
> > Annemehr:
> > Given the difference in the way Hagrid talks about
> > it before and after
> > the kids' trip down the trapdoor it's clear he
> > didn't realise the
> > significance of what he'd done until afterward.

Chris/Mezu(do you have preference?):
> Yes, DD realized something, but we only hear of that
> as a passing afterthought.  If DD was the only one who
> knew all the traps, that was irresponsible of him to
> not let any other teacher know, especially with him
> leaving the building. 
> 
> If Hagrid told DD about the stranger or Harry, DD
> should have changed something to keep security.  DD
> was irresponsible here.
> 
> Also, even if Hagrid realized his mistake afterwards,
> after all he has been through, why would he not tell
> DD he told others of Fluffy?  Granted Hagrid is not
> the sharpest tool in the shed, even children know when
> something is extremely important and will tell even if
> it gets them in trouble. 

Annemehr:
I think you misunderstand me slightly; sorry if I wasn't clear.

Hagrid never told DD about the fact he'd told a stranger about Fluffy
because he never realised it was a security breach until after Harry
had already gone down through the trap door.  My point was that Hagrid
was not purposely *concealing* anything from DD because he naively
thought the stranger was irrelevant, just a passing wayfarer.  That's
just Hagrid (not being the sharpest tool, as you say).  My evidence
for this is Hagrid's complete change in demeanor after he *does*
realise what he'd done: his tearful confession to Harry that it was
all his fault.

I don't know that it was irresponsible of DD not to let other teachers
know about the traps, assuming they were "burglar alarms" of a sort. 
After all, one of the teachers responsible for a trap was the burglar
himself.

  
> > Chris:
> > > Finally, the trio snuck out after hours.
> > 
> > Annemehr:
> > Again, condoned (by DD and JKR) in a good cause. 
> > The DA is another
> > example (not after hours, but definitely against the
> > rules).
> 
> But children (and all Hogwarts students are children)
> need to have defined boundaries. Only then can they
> know they can cross them for a good cause.
> 
<snip>
> It's no wonder that Harry continously breaks the after
> hours rule, it's not applied evenly.  He only fears
> Snape and McGonagall. No other teacher punishes him
> for being out. I include Remus on this because even
> his little speech about being out fell on deaf ears.

Annemehr:
Yes, children need to have boundaries. But people sometimes need to
break the rules because it's right; it's just that the moral stakes
are not usually so high in the lives of the RL children with which
we're familiar.  The discussion on the claims of following rules vs.
breaking them for a higher moral purpose is being well explored in
various threads these days; I'll just state that I agree with the
position that breaking rules is sometimes necessary *and* that it is
good for authorities to take these extenuating circumstances into
account when it happens.

Things are complicated by the fact that Harry sometimes blatantly
breaks rules he shouldn't (and is punished whenever caught); sometimes
breaks rules when he shouldn't yet he means well (trying to find out
what Hagrid knows *this* time about the Chamber of Secrets) where the
infraction is minor compared to more urgent concerns; and sometimes
breaks rules when it's entirely appropriate.  Sure, a kid could get
confused -- but Percy doesn't break any rules, and he's confused too.

I think Harry only fears Snape and McGonagall because Snape is the
prowler-of-corridors after dark, and McGonagall is his head of house.


> > Chris:
> > > Also, the reasons DD gave for
> > > awarding the points was pathetic: 'Cool use of
> > > intellect', 'the best game of chess Hogwarts has
> > ever
> > > seen', 'Pure Love'.  
> > 
> > Annemehr (with benefit of book):
> > Actually, it was "cool use of logic in the face of
> > fire," "the best
> > game of chess Hogwarts has seen in many years," and
> > "pure nerve and
> > outstanding courage."  
> 
> Thanks for the quotes, but my point still stands.  The
> deuling club in book 2 should have generated thousands
> of points if that reasoning stands. I'm sure the chess
> club has had its player that put on a good game from
> time to time. I don't recall many point given in later
> books for courage or nerve.  
> 
> I think the point the books make is that being normal
> (reletively) is not important.
> 
> 
> > Chris:
> But not all Slyths are evil and following LV or Draco.
> They are doing what is right and it certainly not
> easy. Why are they not rewarded as well?
> 
> And not all house points are awarded for doing
> something right. Students receive points sometimes for
> answering questions. 

Annemehr:
Maybe part of the trouble is that we see so little of how the points
are awarded.  All houses wind up with hundreds of points -- how did
they get them?  Some are for quidditch wins, some are for answering
questions correctly... maybe some are for chess club wins; we have no
idea.  I assume most of the points are awarded for doing ordinary
things, and I think answering a question in class *is* doing something
right -- at least it shows you did your homework or something.


> To me the house points system only creates
> competition, not cooperation. It will be very
> unrealistic in the 7th book if all or some of the
> house unite to defeat LV. Telling competing memeber to
> work as a team never works under pressure, the
> competition is just too strong. 
> 
> Mezu

Annemehr:
I don't know; there's no indication that the adults pay that much mind
to who was in which House anymore.  When more important things take
your attention, House divisions may fall by the wayside.

We could debate the merits of the House system (a British school
instition still in some use today; JKR's school had houses), but to a
British boarding school student it's most likely just a fact of life.
 In the HP books, however, we are very clearly progressing away from
the House Cup being important at all, and three of the houses have
been mingling and pulling together.  The remaining problem, of course,
is Slytherin which I maintian is Salazar's doing, not JKR's.

Annemehr