Special treatment of Harry or not WAS:Re: Lessons in the book

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 146098

Ceridwen:  Responding jointly to Hickengruendler and kchuplis.

Hickengruendler:
> 
> While it's undoubtly true that they are doing this, isn't this 
> something totally normal for teenagers? I personally am glad that 
the 
> protagonists (not counting the characters that are written as 
> caricatures on purpose) despite being a bit stereotyped are also 
very 
> normal and recognizable persons instead of some saints, who can do 
no 
> wrong. 

Ceridwen:
I wouldn't say that all teens who don't talk in class are saints who 
can do no wrong.  They just have a better handle on when to talk and 
when to listen.  And that probably comes through being taught over 
and over again, by parents, by friends, by earlier teachers, and by 
the stigma of having detention or fear of same, which is also taught 
instead of inbred.  I can't see that all, or even most, teens talk in 
class.  A class with all or most of the students talking to each 
other would result in a bunch of dummies.  Normal, recognizable teens 
aren't always talking in class.  The ones who don't talk aren't a 
minority bunch of Percys.

Hickengruendler:
> And normally, when they are talking in class they do get 
> points drawn. I really don't think something harmless like that 
needs 
> to be punished with a detention, unless the student doesn't shut up 
> during the whole lessons despite being told to do so. But I can't 
> remember any scene in the books where a student did this.

Ceridwen:
They get points drawn, but they don't seem to care about that, 
either.  It's the teacher's fault for not realizing how important 
their discussion really is.  Which does seem to fit what some teens, 
who do regularily talk in class, seem to think.  And, that's my 
gripe.  The narrative enforces this as normal behavior.  Didn't Ron 
ask why they needed to listen to Snape in Potions?  I like Ron, but 
that was just... well, it negatively amazed me.

And, detention in RL would probably also be given if the student 
talks in class, and has to be told to stop, day after day.  A 
constant disruption doesn't have to be done in a single class.

Hickengruendler:
> And whenever Harry is getting caught sneaking around he does get 
> punished, with three exceptions.

Ceridwen:
But, he is caught sneaking around time after time which has no 
bearing on the particular mission of the book.  He gets punished, but 
he's right back doing it again.  It doesn't work.  There is no 
stigma.  It's almost a badge of rebellion to have detention.  The 
fact that he keeps on doing it over and over (as do other students, 
apparently, but we don't see them consistently the way we do Harry) 
means that there is no effectiveness in detention.
*(snipping examples)*

Hickengruendler:
> 
> This is not entirely true. Harry and Hermione agreed, for example, 
> that they did deserve the Detention in PS given by McGonagall. And 
> like I said, those are teenagers and I find this pretty normal. The 
> authorial voice is also a pretty tricky one, because most of the 
time 
> (though not always) the authorial voice only presents us Harry's 
> thoughts. Therefore it is a pretty biased one, and we recognize 
this 
> all the times, where Harry has to recognize, that he has judged 
some 
> people wrongly or without knowing the whole story.

Ceridwen:
Yes, the authorial voice is usually in Harry's POV.  And it's this 
POV which bothers me, as I said.  Agreeing that detention was merited 
isn't the same thing as being ashamed that detention was merited, or 
agreeing to try and not be in that same position again.  Not just not 
getting caught in that position, but not being in that position to 
begin with.  This is Harry's story.  He's supposed to be growing up, 
learning not only school lessons, but life lessons, too.  And so far, 
he doesn't seem to be learning that punishment is meant for 
instruction, not for derision.

kchuplis:
> I don't know about the proving your goodness part, but in general 
the attitude toward 
> detentions seems rather normal to me. Kids, no matter what, will 
feel 'hard done by' 
> when punished, even if they know they have done wrong. (Somehow I 
find this 
> perhaps the bud of adults where "it isn't MY fault" syndrome has 
bloomed into an 
> entire litigious society who sue everyone for everything, but 
that's a different debate).

Ceridwen:
Exactly.  Kids who think they should have gotten away with things do 
tend to grow up whiney and litigious.  Which isn't what I would like 
to see for the hero of our story.  Sure, we've all felt wrongly done 
by in punishment.  But at the same time, we resolve, at the very 
least, not to get caught again.  In cases where the punishment is 
grudgingly agreed to be merited, we resolve not to place ourselves in 
that position, not only not get caught.  I don't see resolve to 
become a better person in the narrative.  I see a resolve not to get 
caught, which the Marauder's Map helps.  In cases where there is a 
genuine need for the hero to be the hero, that's fine.  Someone used 
a speeding analogy - even when speeding to the hospital with someone 
bleeding uncontrollably in the back seat, the driver can't afford to 
be stopped even for the couple of minutes it will take the cop to 
check the license plate, inform his or her superiors that there has 
been a stop, and whatever else it is that takes so long before they 
get out of the car to discover the emergency.  Best to go the speed 
limit, and not be stopped at all.

kchuplis:
> What I found to be the most egregious case of "special treatment" 
in six books and 
> treated *definitely* with a completely misplaced "hard done by" 
attitude, was Harry's 
> detention in HBP for using the sectumsempra curse on Malfoy. Yes, 
Harry is certainly 
> horrified, and definitely sorry; he listens to Snape with NO 
thought of leaving and 
> waits 10 minutes for him to return and punish Harry. However, this 
is one incident in 
> which our hero absolutely lies, deliberately hides evidence (as it 
were) and then dares 
> to complain about the first detention being during the big match. 
Quite honestly, 
> such a ghastly incident seemed to call for more than Saturday 
detentions the rest of 
> the year. Granted he didn't *know* what the curse would do and 
Malfoy *was* about 
> to use an unforgiveable curse, but there is only Harry's word for 
that. So it seems 
> even in this case and with the dreaded Snape as the judge, Harry 
gets off awfully light 
> in my opinion. 

Ceridwen:
But would Harry have reacted to this particular detention in the same 
way if he hadn't reacted the same way to past detentions?  His own 
concerns are all that matters once the incident is over with.  There 
is no grudging admission that the detention is deserved, it clearly 
isn't deserved to him since it cuts into the Quidditch game, and 
later into time with Ginny.  Someone else said that this was his 
reaction to Snape, but in the beginning, it wasn't.  And how could he 
forget the horror of Draco Malfoy open on the floor and gushing 
blood, so quickly?  Even with Snape as a catalyst?  For Dumbledore's 
first lesson, Harry is ecstatic that Snape will not get him for 
detention that same night.  He even gleefully imagines Snape's 
disappointment.

Lessons with Dumbledore are important.  So, I'm not too worried about 
that particular detention missed (it was made up later, IIRC).  The 
reaction to being able to righteously avoid that first detention due 
to lessons disturbs me, though I can certainly understand Harry's 
glee.  But I think Harry's equal regard for the Quidditch match and a 
very veiled implication that of course Snape won't let him off for 
that one day because of house points and the cup at the end of the 
year, is on another level altogether.  Lessons with Dumbledore are 
not equal to Quidditch, they're worlds more important.  House points 
are not important in the fight against Voldemort.  *Learning not to 
use* spells you know nothing about before you know what they do, is 
more important than a Quidditch match.  And I think that's where this 
detention was going, rather than the effects of the spell Harry 
used.  Because I can see cutting slack for his not knowing, but not 
for his using even though he did not know.  (Aside: Is this an echo 
of the UV?)

kchuplis:
> It is maybe my one big disappointment in JKR's handling of 
character. To be quite 
> honest it doesn't fit Harry's past behaviour, especially given how 
horrified he really 
> does seem (rightfully so) with the type of curse he just used (yes, 
unknowingly) that 
> he would even hesitate to just submit quietly to Snape's judgement. 
After all, he fully 
> expected to be thrown in Azkaban for blowing up Aunt Marge and this 
was certainly 
> worse than that, really. I think Harry would have shut up and been 
thankful that this 
> was all that happened. Instead he even says he disagrees with the 
punishment. This 
> scene is the one people should be most up in arms about in regard 
to special 
> treatment and I'm very surprised no one's mentioned it.

Ceridwen:
I agree that it's disappointing that JKR doesn't seem, at this point, 
to regard detention as anything more than a nuisance.  I think, 
though, that it shows Harry has become more jaded over the years 
about the things he does that hurt other people.  It's another thing 
he'll have to get over before his meeting with Voldemort.  A jaded 
attitude, even though it's still only developing, is counter to the 
love that is supposed to be Harry's greatest weapon.  I was pleased 
that he was horrified over what he accidentally did.  He was far too 
loose with his slashing, too.  If he'd just flicked his wand, he 
would probably not have inflicted such major injuries, IMO.  
Hopefully, he learned the lesson of not overreacting in a tense 
situation, something he *will* need later on.

That he did submit without question to Snape's instructions was a 
hopeful sign, I think.  He was indeed appalled at what he had done.  
It's only later, when the shock and horror wear off, that he slips 
back into his more selfish mode of detention being a nuisance.  Not 
that his friends helped him to keep humble about it, they excused him 
and moved on to the 'really important' things.

But, his later disagreeing with the detention is merely a 
continuation of the same attitude he's had all through the books 
regarding detention and other punishments.  The actual, gorey facts 
of what he did to Draco were just a minor eddy in the stream of 
feeling... privileged? (not the best word, but the only one I can 
come up with right now) enough to get out of detention because *he's* 
the captain of the Quidditch team, or because he has an amazing new 
girlfriend who is already a scarce commodity to him due to her 
studying for her O.W.L.s.  (Jealous? of the time he must spend away 
from his fun activities?  Oh, something!)

Ceridwen.  Don't you hate it when the perfect word escapes?