[HPforGrownups] Re: Let's talk about Lupin

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 146130

Marianne:
> Lupin struck me as "off" in HBP, compared to the way he felt to me
> from previous books.  That whole speech at the Burrow at Christmas
> about how he neither likes nor dislikes Snape, his outing as a
> werewolf would have happened anyway - why blame Snape, he (Lupin)
> must be grateful for any crumbs that fall his way, etc.  It was as
> if he was chanting these things in his head to convince himself
> they were true. His whole manner of speech struck me as overly
> formal, almost stilted.

Debbie:
Did you think Lupin was "off" from a characterization perspective, or "off"
from his character in previous books?  I see Lupin as very fatalistic about
his situation; he expects to get the dregs, and he goes to great lengths to
convince himself that he should simply accept the way things are.  I felt
that the Lupin we saw in HBP probably reflected the survival tactics he used
to deal with all those years of isolation and loneliness.  In contrast, next
to the MWPP days, POA and OOP were the best times of his adult life -- first
as a member of the Hogwarts teaching staff, and in OOP he could hang out at
Grimmauld Place with Sirius and the other Order members.

After the death of Sirius, he reverted to his usal coping mechanisms, which
involved a good dose of mental self-flagellation.  Taking on the job of
interfacing with the other werewolves is all of a piece with that kind of
behavior.  His appearance at the end of OOP ("his face pale, his hair
greying, a long and threadbare overcoat covering a shabby jumper and
trousers") strongly suggest the description JKR gives when we first see him
on the train in POA, when he has been living as an outcast for many years.
So, in my view, Lupin was "off" only if we're comparing him to the good
days.  These are not good days for him.

Marianne:
> But, to get to the Tonks thing, I agree, I felt it came out of
> left field. It felt tacked on to me, as if JKR suddenly decided
> not only to pair these two off, but to use this as another facet
> of the theme of obsessive love, but an obsessive love that turns
> out okay.

Debbie:
I can't say I wasn't surprised (though perhaps I shouldn't have been, as the
book seemed to be oozing love potions), but for me the pieces seemed to fall
into place.  They certainly had plenty of time to get to know one another in
OOP, since Tonks seemed to hang out at 12GP almost as much as Lupin did.
And they did get left mysteriously in Hogsmeade alone together when they
escorted Harry & co. back to Hogwarts after Christmas.

Lupin is about the last character in all of HP to express his feelings.  For
him to have done so would have been wholly out of character.  So, I think
JKR tried to do it by focusing on the *reasons* Lupin gives, and hoping the
readers would focus on the absence of "I don't return your feelings" on his
list as inferring that wasn't the issue.  I'll readily admit, though, that
it was too subtle and left a lot of readers scratching their heads.  (We all
have those moments; it took me a long time to accept that Sirius wasn't
going to double-cross Harry when he and Buckbeak rescued him in POA.)

Marianne:
Here she is, browbeating the man she is supposedly in
> love with, who is currently reeling from the death of the person
> who gave him more opportunities to succeed in life, despite being
> a werewolf, than anyone else. She tries to force him to address
> their relationship, or lack of it, at this very emotional moment,
> in front of a bunch of other people.  Now, maybe we're supposed to
> read this as Tonks desperately making a final, heartfelt plea to
> Remus to make his see she truly loves him. My reaction to her
> was "What part of "no" don't you understand?"

Debbie:
I read Tonks' dejection/obsession as relating to the *reason* for Lupin's
rejection rather than the fact of rejection.  The reasons Lupin gives for
his prior rejection have nothing to do with his feelings; his feelings are
addressed through subtext, which I thought was clear.  Too old, too poor,
too dangerous.  She is despondent because she has offered him a gift and he
has rejected it because he has convinced himself that he doesn't deserve
it.

Lupin is about the last character in all of HP to express his feelings.  For
him to have done so would have been wholly out of character.  So, I think
JKR tried to do it by focusing on the *reasons* Lupin gives, and hoping the
readers would focus on the absence of "I don't return your feelings" on his
list as inferring that wasn't the issue.  I'll readily admit, though, that
it was too subtle and left a lot of readers scratching their heads.  (We all
have those moments; it took me a long time to accept that Sirius wasn't
going to double-cross Harry when he and Buckbeak rescued him in POA.)

Marianne:
> We had examples of others suffering an unhealthy sort of love or
> infatuation, and acting on it (Merope). We had the description of
> the amortentia potion.  We had the twins selling some sort of love
> potion.  We had Romilda, the fan-girl, trying to slip something to
> Harry, and inadvertently affecting Ron.  Is Tonks' affection for
> Remus real, or another example of infatuation? Or is it an example
> of love that may appear obsessive to some readers, but really
> isn't?  The jury is still out for me.

Debbie:
I thought it was real, but overplayed.

Magda:
It's not the shipping I mind but rather the quality of the cargo.
Ron turned into a total doofus, Hermoine into a shrew, Harry's
roaring monster gave me the giggles and Ginny unleashed her inner
bitch.  Not sure it made young love look very attractive.  Personally
I think that if JKR has any ambitions to be a romance writer, a
sympathetic but firm editor needs to sit her down for a long chat.

Debbie:
Agree again.  JKR is at her best when she plays the shipping for laughs, as
she did with the Yule Ball episode.  I thought the best "shipping" moment of
HBP was Love Potioned!Ron, because it was laugh-out-loud funny.  Most of the
rest could have been cleared out of the book and I wouldn't have noticed.
But despite the surprise, Lupin/Tonks *worked* for me, somehow.  Perhaps
because they are adults, or because I empathize with Lupin.

Debbie
who wanted to respond to other posts but has run out of time


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