Horcrux and Lily Stepping Aside (was:Re: Nagini etymology + snakes' lifespan?)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 146216

Carol earlier:
> > If being a Horcrux does grant her [Nagini] something like the
immortality of Tolkien's Elves (subject to death in battle but not to
old age or disease), that might explain how Voldemort can possess her
without destroying her life force (as he did Quirrell's and those of
the small creatures he possessed at other times). It would also be an
 argument against deliberately creating a human Horcrux, especially 
Harry. Why would he want to make his archnemesis or a potential rival
immortal? (I don't think a Horcrux can be created accidentally, as it
requires a spell.)
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I don't usually get involved in this sort of discussion, but I just 
> had a brain wave caused by the above comment of Carol's. (Yup, this 
> is *her* fault <g>.)  What if Voldemort did the Horcrux creating 
> spell just before he burst in on Lily and Harry?  IIRC, Dumbledore 
> suspected that Voldemort wanted to create a Horcrux with Harry's 
> death.  So Voldemort would have waited to cast the spell until after 
> he'd killed James, but he'd have cast the spell just before he 
> entered the room Harry and Lily were in because he wants the spell 
> to remain a secret.  Wouldn't want the other Death Eaters to go all 
> immortal on him.  (It's generally believed that someone else was 
> there, right?)
> 
> That would explain why he wanted Lily to step aside (she wasn't a 
> Horcrux worthy kill), and it would explain why a Horcrux was created 
> with her death.  (One was created at that point, yes?  I mean, 
> there's just a question of whether the spell went into Nagini or 
> Harry, right?) <snip>

Carol responds:

Well, no, not necessarily. I think he either had all his Horcruxes
before he went to Godruc's Hollow or he created the Nagini Horcrux
quite deliberately after his body was restored (although that does
make his affinity with Nagini problematic. What else might have
brought it about if it exists before she becomes a Horcrux)? 

I don't believe in accidental Horcruxes (they require a spell, or more
likely a complex incantation), nor in Harry as Horcrux (I think he
acquired some of Voldie's powers, including Parseltongue, but not a
soul bit). 

I also don't think that a Horcrux needs to be made on the spot
immediately after a murder. For example, if he used Myrtle's murder,
important because it was his first, to make the diary Horcrux, he
would have had to wait quite a while to do it. He had already murdered
his own father and grandparents and returned to school before he asked
Slughorn about Horcruxes. And I doubt that he could have learned more
about them at Hogwarts; he'd have had to do it on his summer holiday
before his seventh year. So even if he used his father's murder rather
than Myrtle's to turn the diary into a Horcrux (which doesn't make
sense to me because there's no connection between the two), there
would still be a time lag because he didn't know how to make a Horcrux
yet.) 

I also don't think he needs to have the object that will be turned
into a Horcrux with him when he commits the murder. He wrote the diary
after Myrtle's death (and put the memory of seeing her body in it), so
he wouldn't have had it with him. It didn't have any significance yet
and he didn't know how to make a Horcrux yet. He may not even have
known of their existence at that point, since the diary originally had
a very different purpose. Also, IIRC, he took the ring from Morfin
after he'd killed the Riddles at the same time he planted the false
memory in Morfin's mind. He didn't have it with him, and may not even
have known of its existence, when he killed his father. The only
reason he had the locket and cup future Horcruxes with him when he
killed Hepzibah Smith is that he had to kill her to get them. And he
could have used her murder to transform only one of them into a
Horcrux (probably the cup because it was associated with Hufflepuff
and so was she. The locket was associated with his own Slytherin
heritage). 

But my point is that he doesn't need to have an object with him when
he commits a murder to turn it into a Horcrux later. All that's
required is an unused soul bit from a previous murder, a suitable
object, and the incantation, whatever it may be. (It may require a
ritual as well; I imagine it's a complex bit of magic. I can't see him
lifting a soul bit out of his head as easily as Snape removes a
thought to put it in a Pensieve.) As I see it, as long as his soul is
already split by a murder, he can use the soul bit from that murder to
make a Horcrux at any time. If there's a connection between the murder
and the object, so much the better, but it's not absolutely necessary. 

So he would not have needed to take an object with him to Godric's
Hollow, or to bring Nagini with him if he intended to use her.
(There's certainly no hint of her presence at GH in canon.) But he
could have used Harry's murder to make a Horcrux as soon as he was
able to hold a wand (and Peter was conveniently out on an errand). The
problem there, as I said, is how he could have developed such an
affinity with Nagini that he could use her venom to sustain him if she
wasn't already a Horcrux. (Ideas, anybody?)

To me it seems more likely that he made the Horcruxes, including
Nagini, before he even knew about the Prophecy, or at least before he
went to Godric's Hollow to kill Harry. (Murdering the One who could
defeat him would have been a much greater priority than creating a
sixth Horcrux, even if he intended to use Harry's death to create one
later.) 

We've all wondered why there was a fifteen-month delay between Harry's
birth and his parents' death. It certainly wouldn't have taken Voldie
that long to find out which baby boys had been born at the end of
July; all he would need to do is read the birth announcements in the
Daily Prophet. So maybe he was trying to find a suitable object
(valuable, powerfully magical, having some personal significance, not
subject to decay or corruption) and, failing to find one that met
these criteria, settled on his dear familiar, Nagini. Granted, we
don't know when he acquired her, but her already being a Horcrux
before Godric's Hollow would explain how he (or rather Wormtail) could
use her venom to create that rudimentary body and to nourish him in
fetal form while he was waiting for Harry's blood to restore his
former body.

Wow. I didn't mean to create a book from this, but my post seems to
have stimulated a brain wave from Betsy that was very far from my own
view of the subject.

So, no. We're not limited to Harry and Nagini as candidates for the
sixth Horcrux (though I do think it's Nagini). The Horcrux doesn't
have to be present at the scene of the murder and it doesn't have to
be created immediately. We don't even know whether it was created
before or after Godric's Hollow.

All I was discussing in the previous post is Nagini's magical
qualities and the effect being a Horcrux might have on Nagini if she
were one. I certainly didn't mean to imply that she was with Voldemort
at Godric's Hollow. And again, I don't believe in accidental
Horcruxes, Harry or anything else. IMO, intention and time and
concentration are required to create a Horcrux. You don't just zap an
object with a one- or two- word spell and go back to the business of
murdering the One you fear will defeat you.

Carol, who *does* believe in accidental brainwaves inspired by posts
that really meant something altogether different