Humanity, Kant, Caricatures, and Draco /Train scene again/Slytherins and Quiddit

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 146245

Betsy: 
> > > Interestingly enough, the twins have less of an excuse for 
> > > their attack from behind.  It's not like Cedric was their 
> > > friend, and it's not like Draco was interacting with them.
 
Nora: 
> > Of course, Draco does indicate that Ron and Hermione are next, 
> > which I do suspect the Twins might have some interest in.
 
Alla:
> Not only that Nora, but Harry is their friend, and Harry just had 
> been through horrible ordeal and Draco shows up uninvited to their 
> compartment and starts mocking Cedric's death and issuing death 
> threats to Ron and Hermione. Pure provocation, IMO.
> 
> "Too late now, Potter! They'll be the first to go, now the Dark 
> Lord's back! Mudbloods and Muggle-lovers first! Well - second - 
> Diggory was the f----" - GoF, paperback, p.720 
<snip>
> I am trying to remember my first reaction to this scene. I don't 
> think I laughed here at Draco's misfortune. But I sure did not feel 
> much sympathy for him either. To me he was unquestionable 
> provocateur.

SSSusan:
Oh, I remember my first reaction to reading this scene.  I was 
*totally* dumbstruck and *totally* pissed at Draco's insensitivity.  
I believe I may have even said aloud, "What a prick!"  

It wasn't even the threats to Ron & Hermione so much, which I suppose 
one could argue were "same old, same old" for Draco; it was mostly 
his CRASSNESS and CRUELTY in saying "Well - second - Diggory was the f
[irst]."  Oooooh!! In my opinion, in that moment, that action of 
Draco's meant that he deserved to be come down upon.  As Alla pointed 
out, HE came to their compartment and HE initiated 
this "conversation."  His aggressive and cruel actions and words 
brought about the result.  And that result was just fine by me.


Nora:
> > Not that he's somehow less human, but he *is* consistently the 
> > wrongly motivated and openly malicious party.  Does that mean JKR 
> > gives him more lumps and lets him get away with less, and she 
> > slants his actions differently, that something may be okay when 
> > someone else does it but not when he does 'the same thing'?
> > 
> > Yes.

Alla:
> Agreed. It would be interesting if in book 7 Draco starts to 
> experience true character change ( no I don't consider the 
> inability to kill the Headmaster while facing him to be true 
> character change, but I do think that it could be a first sign for 
> such change), how would JKR evaluate his actions them. 

SSSusan:
Yes, I concur with Nora.  JKR may well give Draco more lumps and let 
him get away with less, but this does not, in my view, make Draco 
less "human" than others.  In fact, for me, it is his very humanness -
- his ability to make individual choices, his own decisions to be 
such a twit -- which make the lumps seem appropriate.  I don't see 
him as a puppet or as an automaton but as a human being capable of 
making choices just like Harry, Hermione and Neville do.  Shaped by 
his environment, of course, but any more than the others are??

To me it's simply the actions JKR writes for Draco and the 
motivations which underlie them that make his "more lumps" hunky dory 
for me and for many.  You know -- actions have consequences, and 
sometimes *cumulative* actions mean the consequences are more severe 
than for someone who's not been a git the whole way through.

This is not to say I've written Draco off or that, no matter what he 
does, I want to see him "get his."  I'm not that kind of person.  No, 
I'm with Alla, too, in wondering about book 7.  Draco DID change in 
6th year, and he did become a much more fully-fleshed out character 
who STRUGGLED.  It was definitely easier to have more sympathy for 
him in HBP than in earlier books because we got to see some struggle 
WITHIN Draco, not just the arrogant, cocky, sneering, 
threatening, "I'M right"ness that we'd seen in him for so long.  
(Yes, some of that earlier stuff was seen through Harry's eyes, but 
goodness, many of the actions and statements speak for themselves and 
weren't "tainted" by Harry's POV.)

I could see Draco's story and character going many different ways in 
book 7, and if a "true change" is coming, I'll be fascinated and 
definitely inclined to cut him some slack.  Is that UNFAIR to say 
I'll cut him more slack if he stops being cruel, insulting, bigoted 
and threatening?  Maybe to some, but not to me.  

Siriusly Snapey Susan