CHAPDISC: HBP8, Snape Victorious

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 146557

<snip of the great summary - thank you SO much, Sherry!>
Sherry:
> 1.  This is the first mention of nonverbal spells in the book, 
though it
> becomes important later as we know.  Did it catch you at all at 
this point,
> or did you just pass over it as you wondered how he'd get out of 
this
> pickle?

Alla:

Nope, I did not catch the significance on the first read at all. On 
the reread , yes, of course, I was like "AHA'. She did mention it 
here first. :-)

 
> 
> 4.  Some have said that we didn't see enough of Harry grieving for 
Sirius.
> What do you think of this scene, with Harry's thoughts about Tonks 
and his
> inability to talk to her about Sirius?  Does this show his grief 
to you?

Alla:

YES, it really does. I completely disagree with those who argue that 
JKR did not handle Harry's grief for Sirius well. Now, I had such 
fear, mind you when in chapter four Harry was giving his bravado 
speech to Dumbledore. If that was the only mentioning of Sirius' in 
this book and Harry went his merry way as if he never had a 
godfather, I would have been annoyed, BUT Harry does remember 
Sirius. He cannot talk about him in this scene, he remembers how 
much he hated the glasses that Dung tried to sell. Harry grieves in 
a  very quite, poignant way, IMO. I loved it.


 
> 5.  I just noticed this when working on this chapter and actually 
reading it
> in braille instead of hearing audio where I can't tell how a 
sentence is
> punctuated.  Snape tells Tonks that Harry is 
> 
> "quite--ah--safe in my hands."  
> 
> Is there any implication in his words here, or is it just done for 
emphasis,
> to add some sharpness, for Harry's benefit?  Or for Tonks?  Just 
curious
> about how this was written.  Any thoughts?

Alla:

Well, that IS weird, I have to agree with SSSusan. It is especially 
weird to me since you know that I have tremendous doubts about 
whether Snape is on the side of the white hats. I also think that 
Snape may have slipped here and Harry is NOT really safe with him, 
but just speculating of course. My main reaction - weird.


 
> 6.  Later in HBP, we learn that Tonks' patronus is now a wolf, and 
we're led
> to suspect it has changed because of her love for Remus.  But here 
at this
> point, we don't know any of that yet.  Why do you think Snape made 
these
> comments about her patronus?  He hasn't seemed to have any 
particular
> feelings one way or the other about Tonks previously; in fact, did 
we ever
> see them interact before?  Why does he say that her patronus is 
weak?  What
> do you think about the whole significance of the changing 
patronus?  Does it
> foreshadow events yet to come, or are there implications about 
Lupin in
> Snape's comments?  

Alla:

Hmmm, I would LOVE to know the significance of the changing 
patronus. I tend to agree in light of the earlier discussions on 
this topic that it may foreshadow that somebody else's Patronus will 
change. As to Snape's comments per se, I think that was another dig 
at poor Remus, although have no idea why he would call Remus weak. 
Because Remus cannot hold a job and ill once a month? 


 
> 7.  <snip> Whatever you think of that belief, why do you think
> Harry would so easily believe that Sirius would only rush off 
because he was
> taunted?  Does Harry have difficulty believing that Sirius could 
have rushed
> to his rescue out of love for him and a desire to save him, as he 
could not
> save James and Lily?  Does Harry have a problem believing that 
people could
> love him enough to risk their lives?

Alla:

Again, I agree with SSSusan and want to add that yes, IMO Harry has 
trouble believing that people will risk their lives only out of love 
for him. Where would he learn it? At Dursleys?



 
> 8.  Ok, I've been dying to ask this question for months.  It's 
come up once
> or twice before with no response.  Did Snape see that Harry's face 
was
> covered in blood?  He did have a lantern with him, and when they 
entered the
> school there was a lot of light.  If he did see it, why didn't he 
comment or
> why didn't he realize that Harry had not been late on purpose, that
> something must have happened to Harry on the way?  If you believe 
he didn't
> see it, why not, how could he not see it?  With all the extra 
security and
> all that going on in the wizarding world, why didn't he ask Harry 
how his
> face got bloodied?  Were his snarky comments to Harry on the walk 
up to the
> castle just the usual routine, done to keep up appearances, or 
does he still
> seriously hate him so much?

Alla:

OK, I told you already, but BRAVO. Well-spotted. You know it is 
funny. Before I reread the chapter 8, I did not catch it AT ALL. My 
recollection of the events was that Tonks healed Harry and he was OK 
and no blood on him either.

What can I say? I don't need additional evidence that Snape enjoys 
seeing Harry in emotional pain, I think books are full of such 
examples, BUT this is IMO such a clear example that Snape enjoys 
Harry being in physical pain, as long as he is not dying, IMO. There 
WAS a lot of light, if Snape did not see it when they were in the 
corridor, he had no way of not catching it when they were in Great 
Hall. Tonks did NOT tell in her message that she fixed Harry's nose. 
SO, we have a teacher seeing student with A LOT of blood on his face 
and doing NOTHING about it. Hmmmm, curious, very curious. Just 
reinforces my opinion that Snape is a sadist, really.

I remember that the arguments were made about Snape not preventing 
Hermione from going to hospital wing, when he told her "I see no 
difference" about her teeth. I guess Hermione should have been 
grateful that Snape was not preventing her from getting medical 
attention. :-)

Here, Snape does nothing, just continues to taunt Harry. I wonder if 
Harry would have dropped unconscious from the blood loss, would 
Snape paid any attention.

I am quite convinced that Snape enjoys when Harry is in pain 
emotional or physical. THANK YOU for spotting another example of 
that ( IMO of course), which JKR hides in plain site rather nicely. 
IMO.

Now, Snape may not want Harry DEAD ( either for the reason of Life 
debt hanging over him or because he may want to see who wins in the 
final confrontation IMO), but I think that "Harry in pain" is one of 
Snape favorite shows to watch. IMO of course.

Remember at the end, when Snape stops Harry from being Crucioed? He 
has no gripes hitting him with a course, which hurts and makes Harry 
hitting his head too. I think that if Snape was sure that those DE 
will not cause Harry permanent damage with crucio, he would not have 
stopped them either. Speculating in this instance of course.

 
> 11.  Toward the end of this chapter, we have two different 
situations with
> Ron, both that jumped out at me in different ways.  First in the
> conversation with nearly Headless Nick, was this meant to be comic 
relief,
> or showing Ron's insensitivity?  Later, as Harry tells Ron the 
story of what
> happened on the train, he believes Ron shows his friendship by not 
laughing.
> Does this show anything about Ron's character, or is this just 
normal for
> any kid his age?

Alla:

I LOVE Ron dearly and would never figure out why so many people in 
fandom dislike him so. He IS great, loyal, talented kid which grows 
on me with every book. I think that Harry was exactly right - it 
would have been understandable if Ron laughed, but he did not, 
because he was able to comprehend that Harry really does not need 
more teasing.

Sigh, I want those three alive and well at the end and live happily 
ever after :-)
  
> 12.  Throughout the book, Harry asks about Dumbledore's hand, and 
he is
> repeatedly told that he'll learn what happened later.  He never 
does.  Will
> the exact details of what happened to the hand be important later, 
either in
> what Harry has to do or in understanding what happened on the 
tower?

Alla:

Depends  IMO it may be important IF Dumbledore was indeed dying 
through the book, which I am NOT buying as of today. It can also be 
important IMO if Harry will need to go through exact same protection 
curse that hurt Dumbledore to destroy Horcrux.


 
> 13.  Here is one of my favorite parts in the book, for surprise 
value,
> Dumbledore announcing Slughorn as Potions teacher.  How did you 
react when
> you read Dumbledore's announcement of Slughorn as potions master?  
Were you
> shocked?  Did you expect it at all?  When Harry and Dumbledore 
were going to
> meet Slughorn, did you think it was to hire him for DADA?

Alla:

Yes I assumed that it was for DADA and nope, I did not expect 
Slughorn as Potions teacher at all. I liked it too.


> 14.  I have racked my brains and can't remember any place in the 
books where
> it is stated as fact that Dumbledore did not trust Snape and that 
is why he
> has never given him the DADA post before.  Is this a case of rumor 
and
> gossip becoming fact over time?  Why indeed did Dumbledore give or 
not give
> Snape the job?  Has Snape really wanted it all these years?  Did 
you think
> about the DADA curse when you heard that Snape had the position?  
Was Harry
> correct in detecting the look of triumph on Snape's face?  He 
hates him so
> much, that every expression must be well known to him, yet his 
hatred may
> not make him a very reliable judge of such things.  

Alla:

Well, actually I was convinced before HBP that Snape did not want  
the DADA job and it was just a ruse on Dumbledore's behalf, I 
thought so despite the fact that Snape told Umbridge in OOP that he 
was applying for the job every year and did not get it. I thought 
Snape was lying, but now yes I am convinced that he wanted the job.

Why Dumbledore did not give him the job that IMO remains to be seen.

What also remains to be seen IMO is whether Snape was glad to get  
the job this year, how much he really knew about DADA curse and did 
he know AT ALL.

See, I am not sure about Harry " being sure that he may have 
detected the look of triumph on Snape's face" ( paraphrase). I am 
NOT usually jumping to buy the arguments that characters' behavior 
are completely different just because Harry is the one who reports 
it ( I mean, Harry may INTERPRET facts incorrectly and jump to the 
wrong conclusions often enough, but he reports facts correctly for 
the most part IMO), but in this situation I am not sure at all. 
Harry is sure that he MAY have detected the look of triumph on 
Snape. I wonder if that was exactly his facial expression. Was it 
really fear? Disappointment? I wonder.

 
> 17.  When Harry tells Ron about the things he overheard Draco 
saying on the
> train, we see more doubt on the part of Harry's circle about his 
suspicions
> of Draco.  Why doesn't Ron believe that Draco is up to anything?  

Alla:

I found it SO disappointing that Harry's friends did not believe 
him. It is like in this book Harry does what he is supposed to do - 
he does NOT keep his suspicions to himself, he tells his friends, he 
tells adults and NOBODY does anything ( or at least does not do 
enough)IMO.

I think Ron simply did not realize that Draco would be so eager to 
jump into preparing murder attempts that early. Ron probably thought 
that Draco will at least graduate before following into Lucius steps.

IMO of course.



 
> 
> Sherry
> Who apologizes for the length but who didn't realize how much 
there was in
> this chapter when she chose it.  Thanks for letting me lead a 
chapter!  This
> was so fun!
> 

Alla:

I snipped some of the questions - I want to hear what others have to 
say, but it was SO FUN. Thank you again.