[HPforGrownups] CHAPDISC: HBP8, Snape Victorious

[Wink45zes at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 146588

Discussion questions

3.  Here we see Tonks jump off a moving train.  All through the last book,
OOTP, we are shown how clumsy Tonks is.  She constantly breaks things or
trips over things.  It becomes comic relief throughout that book.  But here
we see her casually leaping off a moving train.  What did you think of this?

Wink:
This did not surprise me at all. I suspect that Tonks is quite capable in her 
professional duties. She had no problem with the long broom ride to number 
12, even with Harry's trunk strapped to her broom.  It seems that her clumsiness 
shows up most often when she is relaxed and enthusiastic, and is just doing 
normal everyday things, or on a 'fun adventure,' as with the Advance Guard 
collecting Harry from Privet Drive. She admits that she never quite "got" the 
trick of the 'householdy' spells, and she is most clumsy in the kitchen.  But now 
with this depression I doubt she is ever relaxed enough or enthusiastic enough 
to get carried away into clumsiness. 


5.  I just noticed this when working on this chapter and actually reading it
in braille instead of hearing audio where I can't tell how a sentence is
punctuated.  Snape tells Tonks that Harry is 

"quite--ah--safe in my hands."  

Is there any implication in his words here, or is it just done for emphasis,
to add some sharpness, for Harry's benefit?  Or for Tonks?  Just curious
about how this was written.  Any thoughts?

Wink:
Right or wrong, Snape has some 'set in stone' opinions about Harry.  One of 
which is that Harry always breaks any rule he can, whenever he can. I have 
little doubt that Snape just caught himself from saying  " . . . quite under 
control in my hands,"  but didn't really want that to get reported to Dumbledore.

6.  Later in HBP, we learn that Tonks' patronus is now a wolf, and we're led
to suspect it has changed because of her love for Remus.  But here at this
point, we don't know any of that yet.  Why do you think Snape made these
comments about her patronus?  He hasn't seemed to have any particular
feelings one way or the other about Tonks previously; in fact, did we ever
see them interact before?  Why does he say that her patronus is weak?  What 
do you think about the whole significance of the changing patronus?  Does it 
foreshadow events yet to come, or are there implications about Lupin in Snape's 
comments?  

Wink:
We really haven't seen Tonks and Snape interact before this scene.  He must 
have some kind of opinion of her, after all she did her N.E.W.T.s with him as 
Potions Master.  I guess the question is, did he recognize the new Patronus as 
resembling Lupin, or did he only understand it upon seeing her and using 
Legilemcy? Either way, he now sees the rather conflicted connection between Tonks 
and Lupin.  While Snape has accepted having to 'work' with Lupin, he seems 
incapable of letting go of the past and Lupin will forever be connected with fear 
and the Marauders in Snape's mind.  A simple tool to overcome or mask fear is 
to ridicule that which is feared, so Snape draws the connection from Tonks's 
changed, perhaps blurred, (Harry is not quite clear on just what it is) 'Lupin' 
patronus to weakness. This says more about Snape's need to hide/control his 
fear than about anything else IMO. 


8.  Ok, I've been dying to ask this question for months.  It's come up once
or twice before with no response.  Did Snape see that Harry's face was
covered in blood?  He did have a lantern with him, and when they entered the
school there was a lot of light.  If he did see it, why didn't he comment or
why didn't he realize that Harry had not been late on purpose, that
something must have happened to Harry on the way?  If you believe he didn't
see it, why not, how could he not see it?  With all the extra security and
all that going on in the wizarding world, why didn't he ask Harry how his
face got bloodied?  Were his snarky comments to Harry on the walk up to the
castle just the usual routine, done to keep up appearances, or does he still
seriously hate him so much?

Wink:
I have no doubt that Snape saw the dried blood on Harry.  But Harry wasn't 
bleeding anymore, Tonks having fixed Harry's nose, so there was no need for 
further fixing.  If anything, Tonks should have done some clean up, but then, 
she's not the housewify/motherly sort. But back to Snape: I think it would have 
been entirely out of character for him to inquire What, How or Why. He's never 
cared about that, he just deals out some punishment and moves on. It's quite 
enough for him to know that 'Potter's gone and done it again, and at least this 
time it seems he got stomped for it, Well he can just stew in it.'

9.  Hermione tells Harry that Hagrid was only a few minutes late, yet Snape
had said that Tonks' message to Hagrid couldn't reach him, because Hagrid
was late, and that was why, he, Snape, had taken the message instead.  Was
this true?  Do you think Snape intercepted the patronus message before it
could reach its intended recipient?  How long do Patronuses take to arrive
with a message?  Did it arrive when Hagrid was not there? Did Snape
intercept the message because he was supposed to protect Harry, or just to
have another golden opportunity to give him a bad time?

Wink:
Oh dear, I must admit this is one thing that jerked me right out of the story 
and irritates me to no end.  Back in GoF and OotP we were introduced to this 
idea of using a Patronus to communicate between members of the Order.  How 
exactly?  Do these forms now talk; do they carry the form of a parchment roll in 
their mouths? what?  Then, there is the whole problem of security.  A Patronus 
is invisible to Muggles, but perfectly visible to all wizards. A bunch of 
recognizable patroni flying, waddling, swimming, galloping across England and in 
and out of an invisible house on Grimauld place . . . well, why not put up a 
big sign for all wizarding eyes to see?  And now we learn that a patronus is 
apparently sent, not to an individual, but to the place where the sender expects 
the  other person to be, and that it can be intercepted by another wizard at 
that!  And this is the Ultra Secure method of communication used by the Order, 
devised by Dumbledore?  Oh please!

So, do you think this is just a rather poorly thought out devise on JKR's 
part, or is it a devise full of weaknesses on purpose?  Did Dumbledore design 
this type of talking patronus deliberately so that they could be intercepted and 
understood by any other member of the Order, perhaps to avoid hidden secrets 
such as the one the resulted in the death of Harry's parents and the following 
misplaced blame?  Or is this a foreshadowing of an obvious but unthought-of 
security weakness to be seen later? I would really like to make this 'talking 
patronus' thing work, but so far it's as solid as sending a secret broomstick in 
the breakfast owl post. 

14.  I have racked my brains and can't remember any place in the books where 
it is stated as fact that Dumbledore did not trust Snape and that is why he 
has never given him the DADA post before.  Is this a case of rumor and
gossip becoming fact over time?  Why indeed did Dumbledore give or not give 
Snape the job?  Has Snape really wanted it all these years?  Did you think 
about the DADA curse when you heard that Snape had the position?  Was Harry 
correct in detecting the look of triumph on Snape's face?  He hates him so much, 
that every expression must be well known to him, yet his hatred may not make him 
a very reliable judge of such things. 

Wink:
 I believe Rowling said in an interview that Dumbledore did not want to tempt 
Snape into returning to his Dark Arts ways by giving him the DADA position.  
Personally I don't pay much attention to what she says in interviews as she 
has contradicted the books a few too many times in them and I suspect she just 
doesn't think too well "on her feet in front of microphones." And even if that 
was part of the reasoning, it reeks of "weak cover story" to me.  By the time 
Dumbledore hired Snape he had been replacing the DADA teacher every year for 
about 20 odd years.  If he truly trusted Snape he would want to keep him around 
and safe for more than one school year.  If he had any doubts, he didn't want 
to give Snape the excuse of the DADA "curse" for leaving after only one year. 
(In the position of potions master Snape would have to come up with a 
plausible reason for leaving, probably raising Dumbledore's suspicions.) 

When I read that Snape had the DADA position I was not surprised, but 
immediately thought of the unbreakable vow and the curse together.  I think he told 
Dumbledore about that UV.  Snape was going to be gone by the end of the school 
year no matter what, it was just a matter of how it played out.  After so many 
years of replacing DADA teachers, the pickings are getting thin (why else 
hire someone as worthless as Lockhart?). By now Dumbledore completely trusts 
Snape, who wants the job and is more than capable of teaching it, and is going to 
be gone soon anyway.  This also leaves Dumbledore the much easier task of 
filling the Potions position, which is only complicated by also having to be from 
a past member of Slytherin house so that when Snape does leave (under whatever 
cloud) the Head of House position will also be covered. Slughorn fills the 
bill as well as being a trusted old friend. 

I do think that Snape truly did want DADA all those years, but knew why he 
could not have it.  We've been told (by Sirius or Lupin, I forget) that Snape 
arrived at Hogwarts 'up to his eyes' in the Dark Arts, which he could only have 
learned from his mother.  While he has since learned 'Light' magic, what he 
learned from his mother will always hold a special place in his heart. This of 
course does not mean that he has not rejected Voldemort. 

15.  How do you feel about Harry's savage comment that at least it means
Snape will be gone by the end of the year?  Did Harry's comment about
keeping his fingers crossed for another death disturb you? 

Wink:
I just made the mental note that Harry was going to be learning the lesson of 
"beware of what you wish for, it may come true."

17.  When Harry tells Ron about the things he overheard Draco saying on the
train, we see more doubt on the part of Harry's circle about his suspicions
of Draco.  Why doesn't Ron believe that Draco is up to anything?  

Wink:
Two things cross my mind regarding this.  First, I think Ron and Hermione, 
for all that they want to know what is happening, have accepted the judgments, 
the moral code, of their elders.  School children are not allowed into the 
Order, therefore school children are not allowed into the Death Eaters. Harry has 
spent his whole life struggling with, first the abusive constraints by the 
Dursleys, and then the overly protective constraints of the teachers and now the 
Order.  He has himself rejected the "because I said so" rules box, and he has 
a better understanding that Voldemort would not be restricted by any box of 
moral code. 

Second: Just the previous spring, Ron and Hermione (among others) followed 
Harry into a trap where they were seriously injured and Sirius was killed. They 
learned the hard way not to blindly trust Harry, especially when it comes to 
his obsessive notions. 

Wink


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