Patronus issues (was ChapDisc: HBP8, Snape Victorious)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 146614

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat4001" <zarleycat at s...>
wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Wink45zes at a... wrote:
> 
> Chap. Disc. question:
> # 9.   ...
> > this true?  Do you think Snape intercepted the patronus 
> > message before it could reach its intended recipient?  How 
> > long do Patronuses take to arrive with a message?  Did it 
> > arrive when Hagrid was not there? ...
> > 
> > Wink:
> > Oh dear, I must admit this is one thing that jerked me right
> > out of the story  and irritates me to no end.  Back in GoF 
> > and OotP we were introduced to this idea of using a Patronus
> > to communicate between members of the Order.  How  exactly?
> >  Do these forms now talk; ...  

bboyminn:

First, I think we frequently become confunded more by what we don't
know than by what we do know. For example, we don't know that a
Patronus has to stay visible for the whole time that it exists. We
also don't know that it must travel in realtime by 'real' methods. 

For example, if your Patronus was a cat, how long would it take a cat
to walk from Hogwarts to London to deliver a message? Either the
Patronus is only good for very short distance messages, or Patronuses
can fly regardless of their animal form. Either that or they can
travel my magical means; something similar to Apparation. 


> > Wink continues:
> >
> > Then, there is the whole problem of security.  

bboyminn:

Well before we get bogged down in security problems let's acknowledge
security advantages. First, a Patronus has no solid form and therefore
can not be harmed. Since it can not be harmed, it can not be compelled
to give up it's message. It also can not be stopped by protective
enchantments or solid barriers. Next, it is inherently an anti-dark
arts spell, so it can't be affected by dark magic. Also, since
Patronuses tend to be unique to the wizard, it is very hard to fake a
message or send a false message.

So, while it may have some disadvanges, it can't be denied that it
does have certain very powerful advantages.

> Wink continues:
> >
> > A Patronus  is invisible to Muggles, but perfectly visible
> > to all wizards. ... And now we learn that a patronus is 
> > apparently sent, not to an individual, but to the place 
> > where the sender expects the other person to be, and that 
> > it can be intercepted by another wizard at that!  ...
> > 
> >...edited...
> 
> Marianne:
> There certainly do seem to be some questionable areas in this
> whole Patronus-as-messenger thing.  On the one hand, the idea
> that OoP members would immediately know the sender of a message
> is helpful ...edited... 
> 
> I wonder if there is some sort of additional spell on the OoP 
> Patronuses to protect these messages from being told to someone not 
> in the Order, sort of a magical encryption.  ...
> 

bboyminn:

As I pointed out, there is no way to compell a Patronus to speak,
assuming it does actually speak. Since a Patronus can't be harmed it
can't be coerced.

As far as the message Tonks sent to Hagrid, I'm sure the message is
guided by intent. Tonks could have told her Patronus to 'go to the
Great Hall and get Hagrid'. It is possible there was no verbal
message. It is possible that the Patronus merely intended to present
itself to Hagrid and that would have been enough for him to come and
investigate. It is also possible that the Patronus did not deliver a
message to Snape, but Snape merely saw the Partonus and investigated
sufficiently to know that Tonks was waiting at the front gate. 

Now if Tonks had formed an intent that said in effect 'go find Hagrid
and bring him to the front gate', the Patronus might have acted
differently. It might have gone to where ever Hagrid was to deliver
the message. Again, not knowing Tonks specific instruction and not
having direct knowledge of the Patronuses encounter with Snape, we
can't really say who knew what or who said what to who.

> Marianne continues:
>
> ...edited...
> 
> Or does the Patronus act more like an owl, and somehow find the 
> recipient, no matter where they are, unless, of course, the Patronus 
> is intercepted on the way? If the Patronus automatically seeks out 
> the person to whom the message is being sent, then Tonks's Patronus 
> message would have been traveling on a bee-line to Hagrid.  Which 
> then opens up a question as to just why Snape felt it necessary to 
> intercept the message. 
> 
> And, can a person send more than one Patronus message at a time, 
> should two people need to be informed of something, and the caster 
> knows they are in two different places? 
> 
> Marianne, with more questions than answers
>

bboyminn:

Again, I think the Patronus is guided by the instructions of the
sender. If Tonks had specifically said 'find Hagrid' then that is what
the Patronus would do. If she said 'go to the Great Hall and alert
Hagrid', that would be completely different. I suspect under those
circumstances the Patronus would be unable to fullfil it's mandate and
would simply disolve. I don't see Patronuses as highly intelligent
creatures capable of logic and reasoning, and thereby capable of
logicing out an alternative course of action. They do as they are told
and no more.

We don't know the extent of the Patronus Messenger. Maybe they do
travel in realtime and are therefore only good for short distance
messages. If they do not travel in realtime then logic would assume
that distance is not significant barrier to them. They could near
instantly deliver a message halfway around the world. 

I suspect that in the instance of Tonks trying to contact Hagrid or
Dumbledore summoning Hagrid to the location of the Barty Sr attack,
there were not messages. The mere presents of a recognisable Patronus
would have cause people to come and investigate. In the case of
Dumbledore's Patronus summoning Hagrid, it could have merely flown off
in the direction of the trouble, and Hagrid followed in that
direction. As soon as Hagrid had the direction, the Patronus's mission
was accomplished and it vanished.

For longer messages I suspect the Patronus speaks in the voice of the
sender, but I don't see a dialog occurring. The Patronus delivers its
message and once the receiver acknowledges the message, the Patronus
vanishes; no return message. If the receiver wants to send a response,
they do so with their own Patronus. 

Speaking in the voice of the sender is also a security precaution. It
you received a Stag Patronus that does not speak in Harry's voice, you
can be sure it is a fake.

If we assume magical travel by Patronuses over long distances then we
do not have to worry about them being seen. If being seen might be a
problem, then the sender of the message can by the intent of the
message request that the Patronus remain invisible until it arrives at
 the receiver's location.

Part of what I'm trying to say is that give our noticable lack of
information on the nature of the Patrous as a messenger, we really
can't accurately speculate on how good or bad a messenger they are. I
do suspect they are not used for routine messages, so Patronuses
aren't constantly flying all over the place. I suspect they are used
in critial situation and emergencies, and that more mundane methods
are used for routine communications.

I guess it is a matter of prespective and assumption, if you assume
the Patronus Messenger is flawed then of course you will react
accordingly. If you assume that it is a worthy messenger, then even
lacking the details you will assume there is a reasonable explanation.
 It's a case of determining in your own mind whether the glass is half
full or half empty.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn