CHAPDISC: HBP8, Snape Victorious

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 146620

Sherry, CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, 
Chapter 8, Discussion questions

> 1.  This is the first mention of nonverbal spells in the book, 
though it
> becomes important later as we know.  Did it catch you at all at 
this point,
> or did you just pass over it as you wondered how he'd get out of 
this
> pickle?

Ceridwen:
I just thought Harry was trying for something over his head.


> 2.  Harry despises himself for wishing there would be the sound of 
panic,
> people wondering what had happened to him.  He has always hated his
> celebrity, but in this situation, it might have helped.  Later in 
the
> chapter, when he is at the Gryffindor table and feeling 
embarrassed, he
> hopes the students will just assume he was off doing something 
heroic.  How
> do you feel about his thoughts in this situation?  Does it seem
> inconsistent, practical, or natural to you?

Ceridwen:
It seems consistent with a boy of his age.  He doesn't want to ride 
the train all the way back to London, so he hopes someone will find 
him, and he'll even accept someone finding him with it being due to 
his celebrity.  Once he isn't going to London after all, he doesn't 
want anyone to know that he did something foolish.  Danger is past, 
now he has the luxury of worrying about his reputation.


> 3.  Here we see Tonks jump off a moving train.  All through the 
last book,
> OOTP, we are shown how clumsy Tonks is.  She constantly breaks 
things or
> trips over things.  It becomes comic relief throughout that book.  
But here
> we see her casually leaping off a moving train.  What did you think 
of this?
> We learn later that Tonks has lost her metamorphmagus ability.  Do 
you think
> her ability to change her appearance could be part of why she is 
clumsy? Is
> it possible that she isn't very well coordinated because of her
> metamorphing?  Will she be clumsy again now that she has her 
ability back at
> the end of HBP?  Or is there something more sinister going on 
here?  Is this
> really Tonks?

Ceridwen:
I didn't think anything about it at this point, I was in a hurry to 
finish the book.  *g*  When I did think about it later, my first 
thought was that she's an Auror, and would of course need to be able 
to do physical things like this.  I did put myself in that place and 
wonder that she could do it so well.  But it had nothing to do with 
her having been a klutz until someone else mentioned it.  After that, 
though, and seeing her other appearances before I finished reading, I 
did wonder if this might not be Tonks after all.  I'm still up in the 
air about some of the appearances.


> 4.  Some have said that we didn't see enough of Harry grieving for 
Sirius.
> What do you think of this scene, with Harry's thoughts about Tonks 
and his
> inability to talk to her about Sirius?  Does this show his grief to 
you?

Ceridwen:
Yes.  Grief is a very personal thing.  Sometimes, it's hard to talk 
about it, even to people you're close to.  Harry also has other 
issues, like his guilt over thinking that perhaps it was only on his 
account that Sirius came to the MoM and died.  I don't think he would 
say anything to Tonks until he had the rest of his feelings sorted 
out so he could focus only on the grieving.  Also, re-reading to 
answer, it seems that Tonks is different, more of a stranger, as 
Harry is comparing her to the way he remembered her from the year 
before.  She may have been too much of a 'stranger' in that way for 
him to open up to her.


> 5.  I just noticed this when working on this chapter and actually 
reading it
> in braille instead of hearing audio where I can't tell how a 
sentence is
> punctuated.  Snape tells Tonks that Harry is 
> 
> "quite--ah--safe in my hands."  
> 
> Is there any implication in his words here, or is it just done for 
emphasis,
> to add some sharpness, for Harry's benefit?  Or for Tonks?  Just 
curious
> about how this was written.  Any thoughts?

Ceridwen:
I had to go back and read this particular exchange again, since I 
didn't pay much attention to it when reading it before.  Snape has 
just made a remark about Harry not having his robes.  Harry begins to 
answer, but Snape cuts him off with the whole of this quote.  He 
could have been distracted by what Harry was saying, though I don't 
know why JKR would write it that way if that's the only implication.  
Snape may have been about to make a disparaging remark about Saint 
Potter thinking he was more than capable of looking after himself.  
And, Snape also refers to Tonks as Nymphadora here, which I thought 
was odd from the first time I read it.  Tonks would have been Snape's 
student, and he probably called her 'Miss Tonks' for seven years.  
Why the familiarity?  It just didn't jibe with Snape's character for 
me.


> 6.  Later in HBP, we learn that Tonks' patronus is now a wolf, and 
we're led
> to suspect it has changed because of her love for Remus.  But here 
at this
> point, we don't know any of that yet.  Why do you think Snape made 
these
> comments about her patronus?  He hasn't seemed to have any 
particular
> feelings one way or the other about Tonks previously; in fact, did 
we ever
> see them interact before?  Why does he say that her patronus is 
weak?  What
> do you think about the whole significance of the changing 
patronus?  Does it
> foreshadow events yet to come, or are there implications about 
Lupin in
> Snape's comments?

Ceridwen:
On first reading, this is where I really started to wonder if this 
was Tonks at all, or someone else.  Patronuses don't change.  My 
first inclination was that this was Narcissa trying to keep an eye on 
Draco, and Snape was letting her know that he knew it was her because 
of her Patronus.  But, how would she know how to send one?  She isn't 
in the Order.  I think I got into the 'what does Rowling mean???' 
much earlier in HBP!  If it really was Tonks, then Harry had already 
seen it, 'an immense, silvery four-legged creature' (pg. 158 
Scholastic), a fairly nondescript thing.  Maybe the Patronus itself 
looked weak, neither fish nor fowl as the old saying goes.


> 7.  We've discussed Harry's hatred of Snape over Sirius death many 
times in
> the past, and I want to go in a different direction with this 
question.
> Harry believes that the reason Sirius rushed off to the ministry 
was because
> of Snape's taunts.  Whatever you think of that belief, why do you 
think
> Harry would so easily believe that Sirius would only rush off 
because he was
> taunted?  Does Harry have difficulty believing that Sirius could 
have rushed
> to his rescue out of love for him and a desire to save him, as he 
could not
> save James and Lily?  Does Harry have a problem believing that 
people could
> love him enough to risk their lives?

Ceridwen:
I think if Harry acknowledges to himself that Sirius did go to the 
MoM on Harry's account, the guilt would be overwhelming.  'He died to 
save me', 'I put him in danger and he died'.  It's easier to blame, 
and it's one of the stages of grief to blame.  Harry is working 
through his grief.


> 8.  Ok, I've been dying to ask this question for months.  It's come 
up once
> or twice before with no response.  Did Snape see that Harry's face 
was
> covered in blood?  He did have a lantern with him, and when they 
entered the
> school there was a lot of light.  If he did see it, why didn't he 
comment or
> why didn't he realize that Harry had not been late on purpose, that
> something must have happened to Harry on the way?  If you believe 
he didn't
> see it, why not, how could he not see it?  With all the extra 
security and
> all that going on in the wizarding world, why didn't he ask Harry 
how his
> face got bloodied?  Were his snarky comments to Harry on the walk 
up to the
> castle just the usual routine, done to keep up appearances, or does 
he still
> seriously hate him so much?

Ceridwen:
I think the snarky comments are because Snape is angry, for whatever 
reason.  He might have worried that Harry wasn't with his friends, he 
might have been upset that he had to miss part of his dinner.  I'm 
probably missing some possibilities.  As for noticing the blood, 
lantern light held low doesn't show everything.  Harry doesn't 
recognize Snape until he is ten feet away.  Then he sees an 'uplit 
hooked nose and long, black, greasy hair' (pg 160).  There is no 
mention of expression, or of any other features.  By the time they 
reach the castle and the lights, it would be very late, they would 
already be inside, and only by becoming OOC would I believe Snape 
siphoning off the blood.  His mission is ended, Harry's safe in the 
castle, now Snape might be able to finish what's left of his dinner.  
This is also where the thought about the Invisibility Cloak comes 
in.  They are already in view of the Great Hall (could you imagine 
being a student and looking up to see Snape cleaning Harry's face?), 
and Snape makes the comment that Harry has to go in without his cloak 
for his grand entrance.  Harry immediatly walks away and goes to the 
Gryffindor table.  Also, as others have said, if Harry was hurt, 
Tonks would have told Snape to take him to the hospital wing.  She 
says nothing.  Nor did she clean him, either.  Everyone gets to see 
Harry with dried blood on his face, just before dessert.


> 9.  Hermione tells Harry that Hagrid was only a few minutes late, 
yet Snape
> had said that Tonks' message to Hagrid couldn't reach him, because 
Hagrid
> was late, and that was why, he, Snape, had taken the message 
instead.  Was
> this true?  Do you think Snape intercepted the patronus message 
before it
> could reach its intended recipient?  How long do Patronuses take to 
arrive
> with a message?  Did it arrive when Hagrid was not there? Did Snape
> intercept the message because he was supposed to protect Harry, or 
just to
> have another golden opportunity to give him a bad time?

Ceridwen:
It's possbile that the Patronus arrived before Hagrid did.  Tonks 
said she sent word to the castle that Harry was safe so they wouldn't 
worry.  She tells Snape that she meant for Hagrid to get the message, 
but she may not have specified, thinking that Hagrid would be the 
logical one to get it due to his duties with the first-years.  What 
she meant and what she instructed her Patronus may be two different 
things.  And she only said she was sending it to the castle when 
Harry asked, not to Hagrid.


> 10.  Is there any significance to the fact that Trelawney is at the 
start of
> term feast?  Is this only the second time we've seen her at the 
feast?

Ceridwen:
I think this is only the second time we see her at the feast.  It 
might be an indication that things are different, that there is 
safety in numbers with the war officially on, or that Dumbledore 
wants her to be there for her own safety (in numbers).  Or it could 
be something else that we don't know yet.  When I read it, I thought 
it was a comment on the state of the WW.


> 11.  Toward the end of this chapter, we have two different 
situations with
> Ron, both that jumped out at me in different ways.  First in the
> conversation with nearly Headless Nick, was this meant to be comic 
relief,
> or showing Ron's insensitivity?  Later, as Harry tells Ron the 
story of what
> happened on the train, he believes Ron shows his friendship by not 
laughing.
> Does this show anything about Ron's character, or is this just 
normal for
> any kid his age?

Ceridwen:
He was a bit smart-mouthed, like any kid his age, with NHN.  It was a 
reasonable observation to make, just not to the person it's about, 
unless you want to be antagonistic, or if you just didn't think.  
And, I don't think Ron would laugh at Harry's story, since they're 
friends.  That would remove any comic elements in it for Ron, I think.


> 12.  Throughout the book, Harry asks about Dumbledore's hand, and 
he is
> repeatedly told that he'll learn what happened later.  He never 
does.  Will
> the exact details of what happened to the hand be important later, 
either in
> what Harry has to do or in understanding what happened on the tower?

Ceridwen:
If JKR avoids writing it, there must be some future significance that 
will give plot points away, IMO.  Within the plot, I don't think 
Dumbledore ever got to the exposition point in order to answer this.  
Harry was not sufficiently versed in Horcruxes, he was still 
absorbing his mission and learning about it.  My feeling was that 
Dumbledore might have told him after they faced the Horcrux Cave, if 
the scene on the Tower hadn't happened just then.  Harry would have 
had a better understanding of the protections in place around the 
Horcruxes (and so would we), so the explanation would make more 
sense.  Just to go off onto a later chapter, I do wonder if (we and) 
Harry would have learned about it if he had been able to get 
Slughorn's memory sooner.  And for the hand being important, I think 
it will be important for both what Harry will have to face, coupled 
with his experiences at the cave, and in understanding what happened 
not only on the tower but what we didn't see through the rest of the 
book.


> 13.  Here is one of my favorite parts in the book, for surprise 
value,
> Dumbledore announcing Slughorn as Potions teacher.  How did you 
react when
> you read Dumbledore's announcement of Slughorn as potions master?  
Were you
> shocked?  Did you expect it at all?  When Harry and Dumbledore were 
going to
> meet Slughorn, did you think it was to hire him for DADA?

Ceridwen:
Completely shocked.  I thought he would be the DADA teacher.  He was 
shown to have some prowess in camoflage defense, with his elaborate 
ruse to make it look like he was already a gonner.  A new use of 
Dragon's Blood, turning himself into an armchair, and the somewhat 
scholarly discussion about the lack of the Dark Mark, along with 
knowing that the DADA position was vacant, all made me think that 
Potions Master Slughorn was slated for Defense.


> 14.  I have racked my brains and can't remember any place in the 
books where
> it is stated as fact that Dumbledore did not trust Snape and that 
is why he
> has never given him the DADA post before.  Is this a case of rumor 
and
> gossip becoming fact over time?  Why indeed did Dumbledore give or 
not give
> Snape the job?  Has Snape really wanted it all these years?  Did 
you think
> about the DADA curse when you heard that Snape had the position?  
Was Harry
> correct in detecting the look of triumph on Snape's face?  He hates 
him so
> much, that every expression must be well known to him, yet his 
hatred may
> not make him a very reliable judge of such things.

Ceridwen:
I think the quote is from a JKRowling interview, not from the books.  
All through the books, Dumbledore says he trusts Snape.  Harry is the 
one who doesn't trust him.  a)  I think Dumbledore gave Snape the job 
because this was his last year teaching at Hogwarts.  Might as well 
give it to him.  b)  I'm not convinced that Snape wanted the position 
so much, I think it was obvious to him that every single DADA teacher 
leaves by the end of the year so there must be a curse on it, if 
Dumbledore hadn't told him at some point.  But I do think he likes 
the subject, and he seems to me like a competent teacher, unlike a 
few we've witnessed.  Too bad we didn't see more of his classes!  
Maybe that means that overall, Harry thought he was decent enough, or 
at least better than some.  c)  Yes, I thought about it immediately, 
and about the interviews before the book came out saying that someone 
would die.  I was leaning slightly more toward Dumbledore, with Snape 
a close second, until this point.  Then they were neck and neck.  d)  
I don't think Harry got the look right at all.  I think Snape might 
have wanted to look blase about it, but at the same time wanted to 
smile.  Might make for an interesting look on Snape!  And, I doubt if 
this particular expression would be too well-known, because it 
probably wasn't used very much.  And yes, Harry might have attributed 
wrongly because of his hatred.

> 
> 15.  How do you feel about Harry's savage comment that at least it 
means
> Snape will be gone by the end of the year?  Did Harry's comment 
about
> keeping his fingers crossed for another death disturb you? 

Ceridwen:
Yes, it did disturb me.  I'm superstitious in that way, words have 
meaning.  I don't actually believe in words causing the wish (but in 
the Potterverse, they do sometimes, it's called 'spells').  But I do 
think that words like this, spoken in anger, could come back to 
bother someone later on if the event occurs.


> 16.  Do you think Dumbledore's specific mentioning of not wandering 
after
> bedtime is aimed at the trio in particular?

Ceridwen:
I think it was a general announcement meant to be taken to heart by 
all the students, including the trio and Draco.


> 17.  When Harry tells Ron about the things he overheard Draco 
saying on the
> train, we see more doubt on the part of Harry's circle about his 
suspicions
> of Draco.  Why doesn't Ron believe that Draco is up to anything?

Ceridwen:
Harry's been wrong before.  Most recently in believing that Sirius 
was being held at the MoM.  He was also CAPSLOCK!Harry through the 
last year, not someone who seemed to have a cool head on his 
shoulders.  He's loyal, he's intense, but he does get things wrong.  
And I think Ron, and McGonagall, and everyone else Harry talks to, 
takes his suspicions with a grain of salt.


> Sherry
> Who apologizes for the length but who didn't realize how much there 
was in
> this chapter when she chose it.  Thanks for letting me lead a 
chapter!  This
> was so fun!

Ceridwen:
Thanks for an interesting discussion that had me pulling the book out 
once again for reference!  Good questions!

Ceridwen.