CHAPDISC: HBP8, Snape Victorious

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 146622

> >>Sherry:
> CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince,      
> Chapter 8, Snape Victorious
> <snip of summary>
> Discussion questions
> 
> 1.  This is the first mention of nonverbal spells in the book,     
> though it becomes important later as we know.  Did it catch you at 
> all at this point, or did you just pass over it as you wondered   
> how he'd get out of this pickle?

Betsy Hp:
I recall being a bit surprised that Harry couldn't manage a 
nonverbal.  After all, he'd done a bit of wandless magic in OotP 
while under duress.  I didn't think much beyond that, though I was a 
bit frustrated with Harry that he never managed to pick the skill up 
during the year.  I think it'll be a bit like his block on the Accio 
in GoF, and he'll have to really knuckle down and force himself to 
learn it.

> 2.  Harry despises himself for wishing there would be the sound of 
> panic, people wondering what had happened to him.  He has always  
> hated his celebrity, but in this situation, it might have helped.  
> Later in the chapter, when he is at the Gryffindor table and       
> feeling embarrassed, he hopes the students will just assume he was 
> off doing something heroic.  How do you feel about his thoughts in 
> this situation?  Does it seem inconsistent, practical, or natural 
> to you?

Betsy Hp:
It seemed quite natural to me.  I think JKR has handled this aspect 
of Harry's life quite well, in the way his view of his celebrity has 
matured over the books.  It goes towards how naturally she's had all 
of her main kids grow up through the series.  Which leads us too....

> 3.  Here we see Tonks jump off a moving train.
> <snip>  
> Or is there something more sinister going on here?  Is this
> really Tonks?

Betsy Hp:
I have *no* idea what's going on with Tonks.  Either there's another 
shoe waiting to drop or JKR handled the character pretty badly, 
IMO.  Nothing about Tonks' state said "lovelorn" to me.  So the 
explanation at the end of HBP struck a very discordant note for me.  
I mean, maybe that's the whole story and JKR just phoned this 
particular redherring in, or (and here's hoping) there's more to 
this than is revealed in HBP.  

> 4.  Some have said that we didn't see enough of Harry grieving for 
> Sirius. What do you think of this scene, with Harry's thoughts     
> about Tonks and his inability to talk to her about Sirius?  Does  
> this show his grief to you?

Betsy Hp:
I think JKR's done a bangup job showing a grieving Harry.  This 
particular scene was just one of the ways she showed Harry's 
struggle to deal with Sirius's death.  The scene with Mundungas was 
another one that really struck me.  

> 5.  I just noticed this when working on this chapter and actually 
> reading it in braille instead of hearing audio where I can't tell 
> how a sentence is punctuated.  Snape tells Tonks that Harry is 
> "quite--ah--safe in my hands."  
> Is there any implication in his words here, or is it just done for 
> emphasis, to add some sharpness, for Harry's benefit?  Or for     
> Tonks?  Just curious about how this was written.  Any thoughts?

Betsy Hp:
Just Snape being Snape, to my mind.  After all, Snape is probably 
well aware that Harry would have prefered an escort from Voldemort 
himself than to have to endure Snape's company.  So Harry will not 
be happy.  I read Snape as somewhat amused.  (Heck, I was chortling 
myself. <g>)
 
> 6.  Later in HBP, we learn that Tonks' patronus is now a wolf, and 
> we're led to suspect it has changed because of her love for        
> Remus.
> <snip>
> Why do you think Snape made these comments about her patronus?
> <snip>
> What do you think about the whole significance of the changing     
> patronus?  Does it foreshadow events yet to come, or are there    
> implications about Lupin in Snape's comments?  

Betsy Hp:
To answer the last question first: Yes, I think there's 
foreshadowing here.  I suspect Snape's patronus may well change due 
to his own emotional hit and this will lead Harry to trust the 
messages that patronus brings.  Or something like that. 

To the other question, I wanted to respond to Alla and SSSusan here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/146559

> >>Alla:
> > As to Snape's comments per se, I think that was another dig
> > at poor Remus, although have no idea why he would call Remus    
> > weak. Because Remus cannot hold a job and ill once a month?

> >>SSSusan:
> <snip>
> So why the "weak" remark NOW? Why insult Remus NOW? Why say       
> something so mean to Tonks? 
> <snip>
> I just don't quite get where this came from... whereas when I     
> thought it was a dog patronus representing Sirius, it "fit" better 
> with what we know about Snape and Sirius.

Betsy Hp:
It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Snape see Remus as weak.  
After all, Remus acted quite weakly in PoA, and in ways that Snape 
in particular would despise.  Remus endangered Hogwarts, the 
students, and Harry to keep an old friend, who Remus *knew* to be a 
murdering Death Eater, safe and to maintain his reputation in 
Dumbledore's eyes.  Snape, on the other hand, turned against his 
friends and exposed all of his past mistakes to Dumbledore, to keep 
the WW safe.  It goes with Remus's character as a schoolboy, turning 
a blind-eye towards actions he *knew* were wrong.

As to why Snape made that comment to Tonks....  I wonder if he 
wasn't testing her?  I mean, an Order member suddenly turns up with 
a shiny new Patronus, the vigilent members would do well to question 
the change.  A strong hit on her emotions could shake loose a stray 
thought or two for Snape to pick up.  Or, maybe a cigar is just a 
cigar and he's got a certain amount of contempt for Lupin that he 
expresses at any opportunity.

> <snipping #7 because I agree with what all's been said>
> 8.  Ok, I've been dying to ask this question for months. It's come 
> up once or twice before with no response.  Did Snape see that     
> Harry's face was covered in blood? 
> <snip>
> With all the extra security and all that going on in the wizarding 
> world, why didn't he ask Harry how his face got bloodied?  Were   
> his snarky comments to Harry on the walk up to the castle just the 
> usual routine, done to keep up appearances, or does he still
> seriously hate him so much?

Betsy Hp:
I think the answer to this question goes towards one of your 
questions under #9:

> 9.  <snip>
> Did Snape intercept the message because he was supposed to protect 
> Harry, or just to have another golden opportunity to give him a    
> bad time?

Betsy Hp:
I think Snape intercepted the message and collected Harry to protect 
*Draco*.  I think Draco was being closely watched, and if he seemed 
to fall under any suspicion he'd have been killed.  Earning a 
detention on his first day back at Hogwarts would not have looked 
good.  Especially for attacking Harry.  If Hagrid or McGonagall had 
collected Harry, they'd have questioned him.  And Harry, as he does 
with Tonks, would have told them what Draco had done.

I'm sure Snape was keeping a close eye on Draco, so I'm sure he 
figured out that there'd been some altercation between Draco and 
Harry as soon as Draco arrived.  By going down to get Harry, Snape 
turns Harry's anger onto himself.  By taunting him and refusing to 
mention Harry's bloody face, Snape keeps Harry's attention on 
himself.  By the time they get to the Great Hall, Harry has all but 
forgotten about his injuries (Ron has to remind him that he's 
bloody).  I think this is a case of Snape manipulating an emotional 
Harry.

> 13.  Here is one of my favorite parts in the book, for surprise    
> value, Dumbledore announcing Slughorn as Potions teacher.  How did 
> you react when you read Dumbledore's announcement of Slughorn as   
> potions master?  Were you shocked?  Did you expect it at all?      
> When Harry and Dumbledore were going to meet Slughorn, did you    
> think it was to hire him for DADA?

Betsy Hp:
I was totally shocked.  And I loved it!  Especially Harry's 
angsty, "NOOOoooooooOOOOOOoooooOOOOO!!!!!!"  (Okay, I may 
exaggerate. <g>)  Of course, I thought this would be the harbinger 
of many a clash between Snape and Harry, so that was too bad.  But, 
we did get Harry crushing on his new best friend, "The half-blood 
Prince", and obsessing over Draco (his appearance, his class 
attendence, his under-age harem...), so there were compensations. <g>

> 15.  How do you feel about Harry's savage comment that at least it 
> means Snape will be gone by the end of the year?  Did Harry's     
> comment about keeping his fingers crossed for another death        
> disturb you? 

Betsy Hp:
It did.  Not that I thought (or think) that Harry will turn into a 
stone-cold killer, but he's definitely got a weakness here.  One 
that would be rather easy to exploit for any inclined to do so.  
Heck, *Snape* exploits Harry's feelings towards him and uses them to 
manipulate Harry.  What would Voldemort do with such a handy lever?  
Or Malfoy?  What would Fake!Moody have done with it, if Harry's 
hatred had run so deep at the time of GoF?

> 16.  Do you think Dumbledore's specific mentioning of not         
> wandering after bedtime is aimed at the trio in particular?

Betsy Hp:
Heh.  YES.  I don't think any other students wander about quite so 
freely.  (Maybe because none of the other students have a map and 
invisibility cloak?)

> 17.  When Harry tells Ron about the things he overheard Draco     
> saying on the train, we see more doubt on the part of Harry's     
> circle about his suspicions of Draco.  Why doesn't Ron believe    
> that Draco is up to anything?  

Betsy Hp:
Ron has the blind spot of the mighty.  They're always surprised when 
the worm finally turns.  Harry, having been the worm a time or two 
himself, is not quite so complacent.  Harry also has a stronger 
grasp of what someone can be capable of when it's family.  Ron's 
never really gotten that.  Neither has Hermione for that matter.  
Strangely enough, this is one area where Harry and Draco are very 
much on the same page.

Really great summary and questions, Sherry!

Betsy Hp