The GoF Train Scene (was:Re: Humanity, Kant, Caricatures, and Draco)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 146680

> >>Carol:
> Sorry for snipping most of your interesting post, which certainly
> presents the incident from a perspective that never occurred to
> me--nor, I would guess, to most of the people on this list.

Betsy Hp:
Snipping is good!  And I'm glad I brought a new perspective forward 
for you.  I was thinking about how much Draco's world view must have 
changed in HBP (your talking about his disrespect towards, and lack 
of trust for, Snape started me down that road) while also thinking 
about how differently SSSusan and I approached the GoF train scene 
and the position of the young cadets at West Point suddenly jumped 
out at me.  Especially as honored and respected professors started 
taking sides.

> >>Carol:
> But I wonder if Draco ever found out that Fake!Moody was Barty     
> Crouch Jr. (whom he, like everyone else, would have thought dead, 
> if he knew about him at all).
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I don't know that Draco (or any of the students) would have known 
*exactly* who Fake!Moody really was, but that he was fake was 
probably well known by the Leaving Feast.  And that the Fake!Moody 
was a Death Eater was probably also known.

Magpie and Geoff brought up that Dean knew this fact in OotP before 
Harry told his version of events.  And, considering that McGonagall 
and Fudge had a screaming fight (with Snape singing back-up) from 
the DADA office to the hospital wing after Fudge had Barty soul-
sucked, I'm reasonably confident that the various portraits and 
ghosts picked up tons of grist for the school rumor mill.

> >>Sue:
> I'd just like to add to this that Draco has no reason to like Fake!
> Moody even if he knew the truth, because Barty Junior is no friend
> to him - he hated Death Eaters who went free, remember?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I don't think Draco was that familiar with the byzantine politics of 
the Death Eaters.  I'm betting that he (like Harry pre-GoF) saw the 
world in pretty black and white terms.  There were the good guys, 
who stood with his father and Voldemort, and there were the bad guys 
who stood against them.

I doubt Lucius wrote Draco a long letter explaining that some Death 
Eaters were friends, and others not so much (but still better than 
non-Death Eaters!) before Draco left Hogwarts that year.  And I'll 
even go so far as to say that I doubt Draco would find that sort of 
explanation all that comforting if Lucius did sit him down once he 
got home.

> >>Carol:
> So while I understand the point you're making about Draco's world
> suddenly turning upside down, I wonder if he really knew as much as
> you seem to think he does about Fake!Moody's real identity or even
> about Krum being attacked and used by him.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Well, as I said above, I think the entire school realized that 
something hinky was up with Fake!Moody and that he'd been working 
against Dumbledore.  I don't know that everyone knew exactly what 
happened to Krum in the maze, but it seems pretty obvious at the 
Leaving Feast that he wasn't thrilled with what happened in there.  
And he does make it clear to Harry that he's against Voldemort.  I'm 
pretty sure Draco could and probably would pick up on that.

Draco doesn't need to know specifics.  (He may actually flinch away 
from learning them.  The facts would not be of any comfort, and I 
think he's smart enough to be aware of that.)  But I think it was 
pretty easy to see who stood on what side by the time of the Leaving 
Feast.  And Dumbledore deliberately brings up Voldemort to further 
drive the point home.  Draco notices this enough to comment. (Was he 
trying to reassure Crabbe and Goyle?)

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> ...I would like to know where in canon you found that Draco       
> actually liked Cedric or Victor as PEOPLE, that he was actually    
> seeking their friendship or something like that, as opposed to    
> simply cheering them as someone who can beat Harry...
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh, I'm not trying to take it that far.  Though, when it comes to 
Krum (Durmstrang attending, dark arts knowing, Quidditch champion 
Krum), I'm quite positive Draco would have *loved* to become a close 
friend.  (Ron comments on Draco's sucking up when Durmstrang first 
arrives.)  Even then, however, I wouldn't say I could prove Draco 
was interested in Krum as a *person*.  

Simply cheering for them is enough, IMO.  Draco saw something worthy 
in both boys: Cedric for being the "real Hogwarts champion", and 
Krum for being Krum.  He put effort into supporting them and I'm 
sure that if asked, he could have listed positive traits about both 
of them.

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> I am not sure why because of that he needs to be pitied for what he
> DID while coming uninviting to Gryffs apartment and starting to    
> make a mockery of Cedric's death. Does his action start to be less 
> cruel because of him being distraught?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
For me, yes.  It's why I pity him and why I see him as something 
more than a horrible little boy.  He did have a *need* to confront 
Harry.  He had to try and get his equilibriam back, otherwise he'd 
have to start questioning his father's judgment.  And once Draco 
started down that path he might not be able to stop until he 
completely broke with his family.  And that would be something I 
think Draco would do almost anything to avoid.

Betsy Hp