[HPforGrownups] Re: Patronus issues (was ChapDisc: HBP8, Snape Victorious)

[Wink45zes at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 146701

bboyminn:

First, I think we frequently become confunded more by what we don't
know than by what we do know. For example, we don't know that a
Patronus has to stay visible for the whole time that it exists. We
also don't know that it must travel in realtime by 'real' methods. 

Wink:
True enough, but what I am feeling confunded by is trying to make what little 
we do know about the Patronus Charm from book three work with this new action 
that a Patronus can perform.   In a world of magic where anything is possible 
I am very uncomfortable about setting any real limits on anything. But even 
magic has its own set of rules.  "Accio!" does not transfigure an object, 
regardless of intention or imagination. We can imagine lots of "maybe this, and 
maybe that" but are they connected with what we see in canon? 


bboyminn:

Well before we get bogged down in security problems let's acknowledge
security advantages. First, a Patronus has no solid form and therefore
can not be harmed. Since it can not be harmed, it can not be compelled
to give up it's message. It also can not be stopped by protective
enchantments or solid barriers. Next, it is inherently an anti-dark
arts spell, so it can't be affected by dark magic. Also, since
Patronuses tend to be unique to the wizard, it is very hard to fake a
message or send a false message.

Wink:
Ah, here we run up against a pet peeve of mine.  Rowling does indeed say that 
a patronus is "anit-Dark" magic  on her web site, but it is never said to be 
so in the books. I'm an old-fashioned gal, and firmly believe the books should 
provide adequate and correct information. Extra communications from the 
author such as Letters, side booklets for charitable purposes, or official web 
sites are fine for clarifying various points, or even adding new peripheral 
information, but I really object when it is used to change what is in the books 
themselves. 

Lupin told Harry that the patronus is "anti-Dementor" which is quite 
different.  Dementors, like House-elves, or Merpeople, are inherently magical 
creatures with their own kinds of magic.  As horrid as they are I see nothing that 
makes them necessarily "dark."   True, I don't want to spend much time near them, 
but I don't want to spend any time near an alligator either.  And I'm not 
sure we know the limitations of Dark Magic.  Is it inconceivable that Voldemort 
could not cast a 'trapping spell' to cage a patronus? As the Patronus Charm is 
very powerful magic,  it is most likely that only a very powerful dark wizard 
could interfere with one. But in a magical world when anything is possible I 
will not accept any assumptions of limitations. (humm, still wondering what 
Snape thinks is the best way to deal with dementors if it is not with the 
Patronus Charm?)

A Patronus can of course be used against other forms of attack then just a 
dementor.  Harry used one against the boggart in the maze, and while fairly 
ineffective it did cause the boggart-dementor to trip, giving Harry the clue he 
needed to know what he was really up against. Harry's Patronus also effectively 
took care of the Malfoy / Crabb./ Goyle / Flint fake 'dementor' at the 
Quidditch match.  While a nasty bunch of gits, and all from Dark families, I'm not 
sure a bunch of gits pretending to be a dementor qualifies as "dark magic."

bboyminn:

We don't know the extent of the Patronus Messenger. Maybe they do
travel in realtime and are therefore only good for short distance
messages. If they do not travel in realtime then logic would assume
that distance is not significant barrier to them. They could near
instantly deliver a message halfway around the world. 

Wink:
I have a really hard time wrapping myself around the idea of a Patronus 
time-traveling. And I don't think we need to go to that extreme.  We know that 
there is magic that can send objects instantly across great distances, as when 
Dumbledore sent Harry's trunk from Privet Drive to the Burrow. Or perhaps the 
Patronus simply darts at almost the speed of Apparition, which would make it 
invisible to a human eye. Either way, there are possibilities without having to 
resort to the complications of time travel. 

bboyminn:

I suspect that in the instance of Tonks trying to contact Hagrid or
Dumbledore summoning Hagrid to the location of the Barty Sr attack,
there were not messages. The mere presents of a recognisable Patronus
would have cause people to come and investigate. In the case of
Dumbledore's Patronus summoning Hagrid, it could have merely flown off
in the direction of the trouble, and Hagrid followed in that
direction. As soon as Hagrid had the direction, the Patronus's mission
was accomplished and it vanished.

Wink:
I daresay that simply pointing in a direction is inadequate for me.  I sure 
don't have an accurate compass in my head, and I've yet to see any indication 
of that talent among wizards.  Hagrid may know his way around the Forbidden 
Forest, but how many others are comfortable walking blindly 'in that direction'? 
And for how far?

I think the most significant example of using this messenger-patronus is when 
Snape first confirms that Sirius was still at Grimmauld Place, and a bit 
later when he alerted "certain members" of the Order.  In the first case, this was 
not an "I need you here now" message, but a "confirm where you are."  The 
reply could certainly have been simple appearance of Sirius's patronus.  A 
Patronus going from wizard to a place would require the wizard knowing exactly where 
the person he wants to send a message to really is located at that moment. 
And if, as it seems, that other members of the Order can 'take it' instead, 
there is open oopportunity for mischief. But if the Messenger-Patronus goes from 
person to person wherever they may be, even a reply-patronus would only confirm 
that Sirius had received Snape's query, without pinpointing his real 
location.  A patronus arriving at Hogwarts and pointing toward Grimauld place, well it 
could also have been pointing at the Ministry of Magic.  An arrow pointing 
might suffice over very short distances, but over great distance such as between 
Hogwarts and anywhere in London, it just is not accurate enough to serve the 
requirements of the story. There has to be something that can communicate a 
complex message. 

This, I think, is confirmed in the second Snape use of the 
messenger-patronus:  

"Dumbledore heaved a great sigh and then said, "Alastor Moody, Nymphadora 
Tonks, Kingsley Shacklebolt, and Remus Lupin were at headquarters when he made 
contact.  All agreed to go to your aid at once.  Professor Snape requested that 
Sirius remain behind, as he needed somebody to remain at headquarters to tell 
me what had happened, for I was due there at any moment.  In the meantime he, 
Professor Snape, intended to search the forest for you. [OoP chapter 37]

I note that it says "made contact," and not "arrived there," which to me 
means Snape did not run down to Hogsmeade and Apparate to Grimauld Place. He sent 
a complex message; one that contained the information (at least) that Harry 
(and others) were missing from the school; that Harry believed that Padfoot was 
"held where its hidden" and a request that someone go look for them there; as 
well as requesting that Sirius remain behind to brief the expected Dumbledore. 
There seems to have been an exchange of these messages, as the Order members 
sent their agreement to go, and Snape told them he was going to search the 
forest. This is all much, much more than a simple "come here." 

It could be with a spoken voice, but I don't think that is necessary.  We 
have already seen how the "secret" of a hidden house can be revealed with the 
handwritten word. It is because of this that I prefer to think that this 
messenger-patronus is something of a shape-shifter, so that it can look like a 
patronus or a silver dart, and changes to a silvery roll of parchment with the 
message in written form, which dissolved into mist once read. 


bboyminn:

Part of what I'm trying to say is that give our noticable lack of
information on the nature of the Patrous as a messenger, we really
can't accurately speculate on how good or bad a messenger they are.

Wink:
Ah, my mistake I believe.  I was not concerned with whether or not a Patronus 
was a good or bad messenger.  I am trying to work out if the devise of a 
Patronus as messenger works in all its details, however we can find or imagine 
them or if it is poorly conceived.  My problem is that the previously described 
actions/abilities of a Patronus just don't jive with this new use. 

> 
> Marianne:
> 
> I wonder if there is some sort of additional spell on the OoP 
> Patronuses to protect these messages from being told to someone not 
> in the Order, sort of a magical encryption.  ...
> 

bboyminn:

I guess it is a matter of prespective and assumption, if you assume
the Patronus Messenger is flawed then of course you will react
accordingly. If you assume that it is a worthy messenger, then even
lacking the details you will assume there is a reasonable explanation.
It's a case of determining in your own mind whether the glass is half
full or half empty.

Wink:
It is not so much that I think the messenger-patronus is flawed, just perhaps 
simply misnamed, or ill defined. .  But here Marianne's question about an 
additional spell got me thinking (dangerous . . . very dangerous!) Most of our 
information regarding Patronuses are from the third and fourth books.  All we 
know about the Patronuses is derived from how they perform when conjured by the 
specific spell using the "Expecto Patronum" incantation.   They walk /run 
/fly.  They stay nearby because they come between you and the dementor, letting 
the dementor suck off its 'happiness' thus protecting the witch or wizard. They 
can be moved where the wizard wants them to go, even  to protect someone else. 

Perhaps the real difficulty is that Rowling is using the same name for two 
different things. This messenger Patronus is something new that Dumbledore 
developed, and taught only to members of the Order of the Phoenix.  It is based 
upon the Patronus Charm, but he has made something completely new of it. While 
the incantation "Expecto Patronum" will, for those who can even work this charm, 
produce the 'protective shield' Patronus,  I suspect that it requires an 
entirely different incantation to produce the messenger-patronus, an incantation 
we have yet to hear clearly. This new Charm would not be limited to acting as 
the Patronus Charm does; but instead it has an entirely different set of 
abilities and limitations.

This new Messemger-Patronus Charm would create something that looks like a 
person's regular Patronus but would have all kinds of different abilities.  
Instead of simply walking/running/flying, it could dart at the speed of 
apparition, or 'send' itself over great distances,. It wouldn't need the kind of direct 
control we see in the Little Whinning alleyway or the O.W.L.s exam, but each 
would be created with a built in specific mission and message.  There might 
even be something of the Fidelous Charm in it so that only those taught this 
Charm by Dumbledore could use or receive it, even if others can see the Patronus 
form. 

Okay, this is starting to work for me!  A "Partonus" is a form, its shape 
determined to reflect each persons spirit (or spirit guide, but I'm not going 
there).  What it does and how it acts is determined by different Charms with 
different incantations.  Which Charm is to be used is determined by the wizard 
according to what he needs the Patronus to do: protect or communicate.  Not 
unlike how "Hoover Charms" and "Summoning Charms" both make objects move, but they 
work in totally different ways for different purposes. 

*nodding head* Yup, that works for me . . . at least until Rowling blows it 
all out of the water by having "Expecto Patronom" make a messenger-Patronus. 

Thanks all for your patience and help while I slogged my way through this 
problem to a workable solution. 

Wink


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